voicing concepts
figured i'd post this re-recent threads....
seems like a lot of players are talking about seeing a
discrepancy between what you're listening to and what
you're reading/practicing/how you concieve
chords/voicings;and wondering how to get the sounds
you're hearing....
maybe you're stuck conceptually re-practical voicings
you've learned and think in terms of when playing
changes vs. the type of voicings/clusters,etc you
might find yourself playing that are not integrated
and usable except as part of "modal section" soloing
where you come up with them and wonder if you'll
remember them to use in actual situations as part of
your style......
for players just getting into this stuff,it's
important to point out that there aren't "standardized
voicings" regardless of style,i.e. pianist x playing
cmaj is not the same as cmaj as written out in your
average "standard jazz voicings" book,i.e.
bebop/post-bop and contemporary styles using voicing concepts
"borrowed from modern classical",etc. vs. your usual jazz voicings and no amount of "tweaking" voicings based on theoretical/pianistic
concepts completely different than the ones players you're listening to are using will get that sound you're into.............
an online investigation of this type of thing will produce good results as there is a lot of info/examples available .........
for more about this,take a look at the file "voicings"
over at 360 degrees,the beginning deals with some of
the issues involved re-voicings range/inversions,etc.
and where on the piano a given voicing sounds best
stylistically;checking out some of the options i
posted back then(minus some obvious errors i've
noticed in reading through them that i missed given
the amount of choices/concepts i tried to get
into.......)will get you into this stuff in a way
non-readers will be able to use as well as more
advanced players........
here's something to try that might point you in the
right direction as far as going from standard voicings
to concepts related to using a given voicing in
different "places" harmonically or,as the example
below demonstrates,putting different roots under the
same voicing and what you can come up with.........
both albetan and 7 have excellent files in their
personal rooms dealing with quartals in all their
aspects for more info about this subject.........
take the quartal voicing c f bb(played starting on
middle c);here's what you get when you use different
roots under it-
i've organized this so that first you have the
root,then the chord formed and finally what notes of
the root chord are produced in each voicing....
bb bbmaj sus2
a f7/a (1-4-5)passing tone chord to f(bb tends to want
to resolve down a half-step to a)
ab abmaj (3-13-9)
g gmin11 (11-7-3) you can add the d above bb if you
can make it technically
f# ab7 (3-13-9) use with modes of dbmaj,i.e.bb aeolian
c locrian,f phrygian
f f sus (5-1-4)
eb eb maj (13-9-5)
d d7 (7-#9-b13)
(with these last 2,you can add the d above bb
again)
db db maj (7-3-13)
c csus7 quartal voicing (1-4-7)
seems like a lot of players are talking about seeing a
discrepancy between what you're listening to and what
you're reading/practicing/how you concieve
chords/voicings;and wondering how to get the sounds
you're hearing....
maybe you're stuck conceptually re-practical voicings
you've learned and think in terms of when playing
changes vs. the type of voicings/clusters,etc you
might find yourself playing that are not integrated
and usable except as part of "modal section" soloing
where you come up with them and wonder if you'll
remember them to use in actual situations as part of
your style......
for players just getting into this stuff,it's
important to point out that there aren't "standardized
voicings" regardless of style,i.e. pianist x playing
cmaj is not the same as cmaj as written out in your
average "standard jazz voicings" book,i.e.
bebop/post-bop and contemporary styles using voicing concepts
"borrowed from modern classical",etc. vs. your usual jazz voicings and no amount of "tweaking" voicings based on theoretical/pianistic
concepts completely different than the ones players you're listening to are using will get that sound you're into.............
an online investigation of this type of thing will produce good results as there is a lot of info/examples available .........
for more about this,take a look at the file "voicings"
over at 360 degrees,the beginning deals with some of
the issues involved re-voicings range/inversions,etc.
and where on the piano a given voicing sounds best
stylistically;checking out some of the options i
posted back then(minus some obvious errors i've
noticed in reading through them that i missed given
the amount of choices/concepts i tried to get
into.......)will get you into this stuff in a way
non-readers will be able to use as well as more
advanced players........
here's something to try that might point you in the
right direction as far as going from standard voicings
to concepts related to using a given voicing in
different "places" harmonically or,as the example
below demonstrates,putting different roots under the
same voicing and what you can come up with.........
both albetan and 7 have excellent files in their
personal rooms dealing with quartals in all their
aspects for more info about this subject.........
take the quartal voicing c f bb(played starting on
middle c);here's what you get when you use different
roots under it-
i've organized this so that first you have the
root,then the chord formed and finally what notes of
the root chord are produced in each voicing....
bb bbmaj sus2
a f7/a (1-4-5)passing tone chord to f(bb tends to want
to resolve down a half-step to a)
ab abmaj (3-13-9)
g gmin11 (11-7-3) you can add the d above bb if you
can make it technically
f# ab7 (3-13-9) use with modes of dbmaj,i.e.bb aeolian
c locrian,f phrygian
f f sus (5-1-4)
eb eb maj (13-9-5)
d d7 (7-#9-b13)
(with these last 2,you can add the d above bb
again)
db db maj (7-3-13)
c csus7 quartal voicing (1-4-7)
There are 26 comments, leave a comment.
interesting smg. a little hard to read at first.
so how does one apply this? do you memorize these like memorizing modes? i.e. quartal structure with a half step up from the root is maj sus2, quartal structure three half steps from the root is maj (13)(9) etc?
fascinating.
i suppose some of them are easy to remember because they are obvious, like bb maj sus 2, fsus, csus. but finding a quick way to remember the others would be important as a few microseconds of delay in decision making means it's not going to get used.
so how does one apply this? do you memorize these like memorizing modes? i.e. quartal structure with a half step up from the root is maj sus2, quartal structure three half steps from the root is maj (13)(9) etc?
fascinating.
i suppose some of them are easy to remember because they are obvious, like bb maj sus 2, fsus, csus. but finding a quick way to remember the others would be important as a few microseconds of delay in decision making means it's not going to get used.
probably what would work best is to take a look at what you're using for voicings in a conscious,focused way;i.e.like i did with the "voicings" file at 360,organize your voicings by type,key,etc.
then start to see how to incorporate these concepts or others that are different from what you use now...maybe if you reduce things to root movement initially and then find different ways to play the progression.........
the type of questions raised get into "learning techniques" in a fundamental way....check out the "developing.." file over there (360)
for more about the factors involved..............
then start to see how to incorporate these concepts or others that are different from what you use now...maybe if you reduce things to root movement initially and then find different ways to play the progression.........
the type of questions raised get into "learning techniques" in a fundamental way....check out the "developing.." file over there (360)
for more about the factors involved..............
i like this approach where each side of the equation reresents the left and right hand:
1+1
2+1
2+2
1+3
2+3
2+4
4+1
4+2
4+3
1+1
2+1
2+2
1+3
2+3
2+4
4+1
4+2
4+3
smg--i use a few of these voicings myself, however i would label a few of them diffently such as
the ones with: ab and eb bass as '6/9's
f# bass 'maj7-5'
d bass 'm7+5'
db bass 'maj13'
..simply because those are the notes in those chords!
i've seen a few jazz theory reference books use a similar nomenclature you have used, and the only reason why they would do so
is because the labels i used are somehow not recognized as legitimate in some jazz circles.
the ones with: ab and eb bass as '6/9's
f# bass 'maj7-5'
d bass 'm7+5'
db bass 'maj13'
..simply because those are the notes in those chords!
i've seen a few jazz theory reference books use a similar nomenclature you have used, and the only reason why they would do so
is because the labels i used are somehow not recognized as legitimate in some jazz circles.
smg--i use a few of these voicings myself, however i would label a few of them diffently such as
the ones with: ab and eb bass as '6/9's
f# bass 'maj7-5'
d bass 'm7+5'
db bass 'maj13'
..simply because those are the notes in those chords!
i've seen a few jazz theory reference books use a similar nomenclature you have used, and the only reason i can figure why they would do so is because the labels i used are somehow not recognized as legitimate in some jazz circles.
the ones with: ab and eb bass as '6/9's
f# bass 'maj7-5'
d bass 'm7+5'
db bass 'maj13'
..simply because those are the notes in those chords!
i've seen a few jazz theory reference books use a similar nomenclature you have used, and the only reason i can figure why they would do so is because the labels i used are somehow not recognized as legitimate in some jazz circles.
this just struck me as interesting smg, because i myself use a very similar structure but just for dominants. instead of two fourth intervals, i use a tritone + fourth interval. try it a half step up from a dominant and move up in minor thirds.
it would take very conscious study to incorporate this though since there is no fixed application suggested. if you could give a sample progression that would really help.
it would take very conscious study to incorporate this though since there is no fixed application suggested. if you could give a sample progression that would really help.
i'm glad i started this thread..seems like there's some interested players all with good ideas.....i'm going to try and take some time to respond in detail to the points raised so far..........
first as always just the presence of 7/jb on a thread means the truth will be known,etc.............
what i was trying to get into yesterday is in response to these questions relating to learning factors/memorization/recall(which is a whole subject to focus on itself)
first as always just the presence of 7/jb on a thread means the truth will be known,etc.............
what i was trying to get into yesterday is in response to these questions relating to learning factors/memorization/recall(which is a whole subject to focus on itself)
-how does one apply this? do you memorize these like memorizing modes
-finding a quick way to remember the others would be important as a few microseconds of delay in decision making means it's not going to get used.
-finding a quick way to remember the others would be important as a few microseconds of delay in decision making means it's not going to get used.
https://www.learnjazzpiano.com/citadel/scotcit.mvc?action=files&sub=file_details&id=1075846998 is a file i posted here a few years back that gets into some of these intangibles in the second section re-"retaining and being able to use learned information",also this recent post dealt with the subject-
to continue re-above responses-
jazz+,i'd appreciate more info about the system you're describing..to me it seems to refer to 1.octave 2. ninth below and root,etc....
thanks to casparus for getting into the subject of the correct labeling of the given voicings,something i'd originally intended to mention re-generally accepted terminology used in correctly describing non-standard voicings/chord types.........i myself would agree 100% with the use of the names you give,have seen them a lot
/think in terms of them,as far as the logic behind the use of "basic harmonic function" terminology vs. describing the complexities of a given chord built on the root,i think it's more that as you get into composing/analyzing progressions you tend to start thinking less in terms of these factors and more in terms of the functional chord type than "the only reason i can figure why they would do so is because the labels i used are somehow not recognized as legitimate in some jazz circles."it depends on whose perspective your dealing with....i keep trying to see the basic root movement and what chord types functionally are being used then see about the voicings options,mainly because before i started really trying to understand this stuff i was mainly coming from getting into composing by using lh voicings and playing lines over them without really being sure what they were and what the movement was theoretically.in contrast to trying to establish a nomenclature that disregarded these exact specifications,i was only using them to indicate the basic chord type
created by each bass note under the voicing.........
jazz+,i'd appreciate more info about the system you're describing..to me it seems to refer to 1.octave 2. ninth below and root,etc....
thanks to casparus for getting into the subject of the correct labeling of the given voicings,something i'd originally intended to mention re-generally accepted terminology used in correctly describing non-standard voicings/chord types.........i myself would agree 100% with the use of the names you give,have seen them a lot
/think in terms of them,as far as the logic behind the use of "basic harmonic function" terminology vs. describing the complexities of a given chord built on the root,i think it's more that as you get into composing/analyzing progressions you tend to start thinking less in terms of these factors and more in terms of the functional chord type than "the only reason i can figure why they would do so is because the labels i used are somehow not recognized as legitimate in some jazz circles."it depends on whose perspective your dealing with....i keep trying to see the basic root movement and what chord types functionally are being used then see about the voicings options,mainly because before i started really trying to understand this stuff i was mainly coming from getting into composing by using lh voicings and playing lines over them without really being sure what they were and what the movement was theoretically.in contrast to trying to establish a nomenclature that disregarded these exact specifications,i was only using them to indicate the basic chord type
created by each bass note under the voicing.........
jazzwee-what you're describing is this,on g7 for ex.-
ab d g/b f bb/d ab db/f b e
b9 5 root/3 7 #9/5 b9 #11/7 3 13
this is another example of what i'm talking about;these voicings are a kind of "template" or "shape" that works in different places over the root(this one uses dim chord sub theory);as well as moving the voicing itself as a stylistic device like you're describing,each of those rh voicings could be a way of playing the g7 functionally in of themselves(and actually are commonly used as such by contemporary players depending on the degree of dissonance you want in your structure over the root- the voicing on f is fairly commonplace,then they get progressively more "out there" from ab to d..learning to think/hear in terms of this type of thing is exactly what i'm trying to get across,especially for players who've mastered the more standard voicings and want to understand these concepts as options.......
usually i try to see how they'll work over the chord root in all the chromatic root-over-root possibilities when i find these type of structures........
as far as-
"it would take very conscious study to incorporate this though since there is no fixed application suggested. if you could give a sample progression that would really help."
in terms of practicing these type of voicings using different root movements outside of their use in specific harmonic context as options built on the given roots in a progression,take a look at these files which deal with these concepts at length-
ab d g/b f bb/d ab db/f b e
b9 5 root/3 7 #9/5 b9 #11/7 3 13
this is another example of what i'm talking about;these voicings are a kind of "template" or "shape" that works in different places over the root(this one uses dim chord sub theory);as well as moving the voicing itself as a stylistic device like you're describing,each of those rh voicings could be a way of playing the g7 functionally in of themselves(and actually are commonly used as such by contemporary players depending on the degree of dissonance you want in your structure over the root- the voicing on f is fairly commonplace,then they get progressively more "out there" from ab to d..learning to think/hear in terms of this type of thing is exactly what i'm trying to get across,especially for players who've mastered the more standard voicings and want to understand these concepts as options.......
usually i try to see how they'll work over the chord root in all the chromatic root-over-root possibilities when i find these type of structures........
as far as-
"it would take very conscious study to incorporate this though since there is no fixed application suggested. if you could give a sample progression that would really help."
in terms of practicing these type of voicings using different root movements outside of their use in specific harmonic context as options built on the given roots in a progression,take a look at these files which deal with these concepts at length-
.......if by "a sample progression" you're talking about taking the given voicing and moving it around,there's sections in these files that describe some of the ways i was using back then to do this;probably it's better in a practical sense to use them as you would any other type of structure when practicing tunes........
smg, that g7 is exactly it! you have a profound understanding of this. i just learned this from my teacher who wrote a book about that particular shape that i was using. i'm excited by the prospect of applying another 'shape' using quartal pairs. at the moment, i've used this only as a sub for a minor 7. i see it now in several versions as a nice open voicing to try for maj 7 chords.
some of those other chords though are not something frequently encountered so for now i'll focus on their application in maj 7 voicings (aside from their obvious use in sus4 voicings).
some of those other chords though are not something frequently encountered so for now i'll focus on their application in maj 7 voicings (aside from their obvious use in sus4 voicings).
smg, on your stacked quartals, i found any easy pattern. it sounds good on any root that is a minor third above any of the three notes in a quartal pair.
so for a quartal pair of c f bb, the roots where it fits are eb, eb and db (minor third above each note). looks all like maj7 voicings.
i also found that on a given root of a maj7 chord, quartals starting on the (6)13th, maj7th, and 3rd sound good, basically offering voicing varieties to a cmaj7(13)(9).
...which makes sense if one thinks about it slowly. quartals which have fourth intervals, instead of thirds, will move a note away from a chord tone thus hitting 9, 13, and 11, if starting on a chord tone.
i'm sure there's more to discover here, but this is a start (for me).
so for a quartal pair of c f bb, the roots where it fits are eb, eb and db (minor third above each note). looks all like maj7 voicings.
i also found that on a given root of a maj7 chord, quartals starting on the (6)13th, maj7th, and 3rd sound good, basically offering voicing varieties to a cmaj7(13)(9).
...which makes sense if one thinks about it slowly. quartals which have fourth intervals, instead of thirds, will move a note away from a chord tone thus hitting 9, 13, and 11, if starting on a chord tone.
i'm sure there's more to discover here, but this is a start (for me).
jazzwee-seems like you've got a good handle on this stuff-
take a look at 7's file which gets into this in more detail-
take a look at 7's file which gets into this in more detail-
https://www.learnjazzpiano.com/citadel/scotcit.mvc?action=files&sub=file_details&id=1075409616
when i was playing yesterday i happened to figure out some more stuff to post like this re-patterns for moving a 1-4-5-1 voicing over a root pedal.....i'll post a thread over here later this week with the info..........
when i was playing yesterday i happened to figure out some more stuff to post like this re-patterns for moving a 1-4-5-1 voicing over a root pedal.....i'll post a thread over here later this week with the info..........
i'm discovering more stuff smg, so keep it coming. sometimes it's like mathematics, sometimes the ear discovers something new.
for example just playing around and discovered that starting a triple quartal stack starting from the 3rd of a maj7 chord will automatically create that same structure that gives a maj7(13)(9) chord that i mentioned earler. these could be important as open voicing alternatives as they are so spread out (kind of like a reverse so what chord with the third on the bottom instead of the top).
for example just playing around and discovered that starting a triple quartal stack starting from the 3rd of a maj7 chord will automatically create that same structure that gives a maj7(13)(9) chord that i mentioned earler. these could be important as open voicing alternatives as they are so spread out (kind of like a reverse so what chord with the third on the bottom instead of the top).
so much to learn.............
here they are-
over a g root pedal in the lh,try the following 1-4-5-1 structures built on these notes;it's up to you if you want to practice these as patterns to be used in open modal sections or to take the voicings individualy and see what you want to do with it.....
f/ab/bb/db/eb
f/g/bb/c/d
b/d/a/c
d/b/bb/c#
these last two are interval patterns that can be continued,the first is up m3,down p4,then down m3,down m2,up m3
g/bb/c#/e
a/c/eb/f#
d/f/g/bb
b/a/f#/e
down whole step,down m3
over a g root pedal in the lh,try the following 1-4-5-1 structures built on these notes;it's up to you if you want to practice these as patterns to be used in open modal sections or to take the voicings individualy and see what you want to do with it.....
f/ab/bb/db/eb
f/g/bb/c/d
b/d/a/c
d/b/bb/c#
these last two are interval patterns that can be continued,the first is up m3,down p4,then down m3,down m2,up m3
g/bb/c#/e
a/c/eb/f#
d/f/g/bb
b/a/f#/e
down whole step,down m3
btw i just bought this book last week,it's a nice one with a lot of good info/technical explanations....there's a lot about this kind of musical concept;if you want to familiarize yourself with some pop basics (including using a jazz voicing approach)i'd say it can't be beat..i'll post something about the contemporary voicing methods he explains a little later on.........it shows how broad a pool of styles use similar ideas..i'm working on a basic chord approach(triads in specific inversions/ranges,etc.)and he shows you how to get the exact sound a lot of players use which you can then interpret with your own voicings/progressions.......... https://www.amazon.com/pop-piano-book-mark-harrison/dp/0793598788/ref=sr_1_5/002-3014735-3336831?ie=utf8&s=books&qid=1192664698&sr=1-5
smg, more self discovery here...
back to a quartal pair.
over a given dominant 7 chord, a quartal pair a minor third up from the root of the chord gives a full alt chord (b9, #9, b13) voicing.
a quartal pair a minor third below the root of the chord gives a dom7(9)(13) voicing.
of course a quartal pair starting on the root is a plain g7sus4
what's interesting on the dominant 7 is how quickly one can play with voicings using these quartals, all thinking in minor 3rd increments.
combined with my earlier mentioned tritone+quartal structure (which also move in minor 3rd increments), i think i have enough variations here to be a complete replacement to the upper structure triads in mark levine's book.
minor third increments form a symmetrical diminished scale and is revealing some interesting harmonic secrets here.
back to a quartal pair.
over a given dominant 7 chord, a quartal pair a minor third up from the root of the chord gives a full alt chord (b9, #9, b13) voicing.
a quartal pair a minor third below the root of the chord gives a dom7(9)(13) voicing.
of course a quartal pair starting on the root is a plain g7sus4
what's interesting on the dominant 7 is how quickly one can play with voicings using these quartals, all thinking in minor 3rd increments.
combined with my earlier mentioned tritone+quartal structure (which also move in minor 3rd increments), i think i have enough variations here to be a complete replacement to the upper structure triads in mark levine's book.
minor third increments form a symmetrical diminished scale and is revealing some interesting harmonic secrets here.
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