hi there. i am just wondering if there is any resource that shows all the scales that fit every type of chord.  my question was inspired by proace's thread on the #9 chord, because i have realised my knowledge in this area is limited.  for example, i know that the mixolydian mode fits the dom7 chord, but if there was a way to see every chord types relationship to every scale type it would be very useful for me.  thanks
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this might just confuse the issue, but i tend to think about this as follows.  first, learn the notes that make up a given chord.  it's always been a surprise to me how many musicians interested in playing jazz really couldn't tell you that gmi7 is made of the notes g bb d and f.  until you know this for all the important chords in all keys, scales and the like are meaningless.  next, look at the notes in the chord and ask what are the notes that logically come in between them.  so for gmi7, something must come between the g and the bb.  well, if the chord comes in a piece that's in the key of f, say, then it's probably an a.  but if you're in the key of ab major, it's likely to be an ab.  similarly the hole in between bb and d can be filled with a note logically related to the key you're in, and the same goes for the space between d and f.  after a while you may find yourself asking, well, what's to stop me building some kind of weird scale around gmi7 - for example g ab bb b c db d e f or something.  this will fit gmi7, and gives me a selection of other notes to make interesting-sounding improvised lines.  this is one way to edge towards "playing outside".  finally comes the realisation that actually there's a scale that fits any and every chord - the chromatic.  at first this doesn't seem like a very useful conclusion, being a recipe for musical gobbledegook.  but actually, as george russell says, once your harmonic-melodic journey brings you back here, you have discovered the chromatic universe and all the mysteries of jazz are solved.

it's zen, really.  sun-faced buddah, moon-faced buddah.

sid
three cheers sid. i've finally run into someone who feels the same way that i do. i've been thinking this way and teaching this way for years and it's amazing how fast you can get a young student improvising without the confusion of modes and all of their complicated names.

norm
amen - that's exactly how i "teach" this stuff

(modes, schmodes:)
okay...before i get blasted...i'm just being silly - i do prefer the chord approach - understanding harmony is the basic foundation to creating relevant, or not relevant, melodies (or modes)
that is logical, sid.
i get my students to practise chord-scale relationships like this:
-major 7th chord in lh - major scale in rh.
-dominant seventh chord in lh - mixolydian mode in rh.
-minor seventh chord in lh - dorian mode rh.
-half-diminished chord lh - locrian mode rh.
keep time in lh and play swing 8s in rh, up and down one or two octaves.
for each change of chord, only one note changes (ie: is flattened) in both chord and scale.
why not finish that practice set with a diminished 7th chord and scale too?
please could someone explain why these modes are important. i am confused because to my understanding , the pool of notes available in a mode is just the same as the notes from a major scale - just starts and ends in a different place - so i don't get what advantage there is in thinking in modes.
i think it's just another way to look at (or think about) things.  i've never bothered with them much, but i have students who find them interesting.  you're right, they're kinda the same thing.  

to me when teaching modes there is a danger of the misconception that matching modes to chords is playing jazz.  i once had a sax player compliment me on my creative use of various modes during mys solos.  i thanked god i didn't know what he was talking about:)  maybe that's why he found my solos interesting?  i was using my ear and knowledge of harmony.

i look at scales as a vocabulary.  i know as i'm writing this, i'm using my vocabulary to express my thoughts and ideas; i'm not spitting out my vocabulary in alphabetical order...
"to me when teaching modes there is a  danger of the misconception that matching modes to chords is playing jazz.  i once had a sax player compliment me on my creative use of various modes during mys solos.  i thanked god i didn't know what he was talking about:)  maybe that's why he found my solos interesting?  i was using my ear and knowledge of harmony.

i look at scales as a vocabulary.  i know as i'm writing this, i'm using my vocabulary to express my thoughts and ideas; i'm not spitting out my vocabulary in alphabetical order..."

i agree.

do you think something similar can be said about voicings?
concerning voicings, following on from my earlier post:

i suggested you can take a chord and build a scale from it sticking closely to the key centre or venturing away from it as your taste and ear guide you.  you can invert the process - that is, take a scale and extract notes from it in any combination your harmonic sense can tolerate, and that will be a voicing of a chord that relates to that scale.  in fact, it's a voicing of any and all chords you can extract from the same scale.  so you really don't need to build chords the conventional way only by thirds or fourths - anything is fair game.  you could even plonk down all the notes in the scale in one go.  for example, a nice chewy chord from the whole-half diminished scale is one that has everything in it, thus -  
db e g bb c eb gb a (this is the swiss army chord, to be used when all else fails).

in many ways the distinction between scales and chords is highly artificial.  you could think of a scale as a broken chord by seconds, and a chord as a compacted scale with holes.

of course, such thinking may be the reason i don't get many gigs...

sid
"do you think something similar can be said about voicings?

that's a good question jazz+.  i guess that analogy would hold true.  what do you think?  

there are certainly common standard voicings that are used but it's the ones that come as a surprise that interest us the most.  i know i, and many others, have our own personal twists and tastes that hopefully individualize our styles a bit...

it really would be nice to hear you play :)
jerry coker's book 'improvising jazz' has some good charts showing scale choices for chords.
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