Luke Gillespie's book
i've understood that alot of you have luke gillespie's "stylistic ii-v-i voicings". i got that book a few weeks ago and i'm wondering how you all practice the things that's in this book? there are hundreds of ii-v-i voicings, so you really can't memorize all of them, and if i were to incorporate these ideas into actual tunes, i would need to voice the progressions that aren't ii-v-i as interestingly to be constistent somehow. how do you go about this?
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you can practice just the voicings you like, you don't need to learn all of them. and you can apply them outside of a ii v i progression, they will still work. be flexible.
but what if i don't actually like any of them, but want to learn all of them in order to later create my own voicings?
the book covers almost every possible voicing there is, all of the most useful types are there, but if you don't like any of them then i don't know what to tell you.
maybe i went a little overboard there, but i see the chords more like skeletons to add colors too. what i want to achieve is to play as many different voicings as possible so that it somehow enters my subconscience. or rather, so that it cultures my ear to hear exactly how i want a chord to sound and just play it.
fine, then start at the beginning and memorize as much of the book as you can, play each voicing set in different keys. and be sure to be aware of what chord tone is on top (in the melody) so you can apply them to real tunes under their melody notes.
hej, can you already play any tune in these two voicing methods:
1+3 (mark levine chapter 3)
and
2+2 (choral style as shown on phil degreg's website)
1+3 (mark levine chapter 3)
and
2+2 (choral style as shown on phil degreg's website)
those are the "bare bones" voicing methods. once you have those firmly under your belt the next step is to add 5ths and 9ths (see next chapter in levine)
phil degreg has some nice exercises on his site, i will check more into that choral style.
i study under luke gillespie, and have for almost four years; i have done a lot of work with this book.
i think what he would say is that the ideas in the book are to develop a harmonic grasp of the piano, using one of the most fundamental harmonic progressions of jazz. he doesn't have his students learn every voicing in the book, but take the ones that we like and fully absorb them (practice in all 12 keys through the various charts of root movement in the beginning of the book) and apply them in tunes that we know.
for me, the material that was interesting to me was in the chapter on drop-2 voicings, the chapter of rootless altered voicings, the bitonals, quartal and quintal voicings, and counterpoint-oriented voicings. i didn't learn every voicing, just the ones that stood out to me. my goal was to develop a similar harmonic vocabulary to herbie hancock and bill evans. i selected voicings that reminded me of that style, which made me in control of what i wanted to incorporate and absorb; "i like the sound of this" rather than "this is what you should learn to play jazz piano."
i don't think i ever play ii-v-is verbatim the way he lays them out in the book - that's not the book's goal. similarly to how we don't practice the c major scale to regurgitate it verbatim when we improvise, we do it to get our hands accustomed to the palette of note choices, and make us able to fluidly select any of the many harmonic colors when we improvise. we have a framework where we can add here, embellish here, reduce there.
the book's been a great inspiration - it's given me a great amount of jumping off points to discover my own voicings. be sure to check out what he says about possible harmonic substitutions (the minor third stuff). it's a great book, and if you have more questions about it, feel free to ask. what jazz+ says is spot on.
i think what he would say is that the ideas in the book are to develop a harmonic grasp of the piano, using one of the most fundamental harmonic progressions of jazz. he doesn't have his students learn every voicing in the book, but take the ones that we like and fully absorb them (practice in all 12 keys through the various charts of root movement in the beginning of the book) and apply them in tunes that we know.
for me, the material that was interesting to me was in the chapter on drop-2 voicings, the chapter of rootless altered voicings, the bitonals, quartal and quintal voicings, and counterpoint-oriented voicings. i didn't learn every voicing, just the ones that stood out to me. my goal was to develop a similar harmonic vocabulary to herbie hancock and bill evans. i selected voicings that reminded me of that style, which made me in control of what i wanted to incorporate and absorb; "i like the sound of this" rather than "this is what you should learn to play jazz piano."
i don't think i ever play ii-v-is verbatim the way he lays them out in the book - that's not the book's goal. similarly to how we don't practice the c major scale to regurgitate it verbatim when we improvise, we do it to get our hands accustomed to the palette of note choices, and make us able to fluidly select any of the many harmonic colors when we improvise. we have a framework where we can add here, embellish here, reduce there.
the book's been a great inspiration - it's given me a great amount of jumping off points to discover my own voicings. be sure to check out what he says about possible harmonic substitutions (the minor third stuff). it's a great book, and if you have more questions about it, feel free to ask. what jazz+ says is spot on.
that sounds perfectly reasonable. i guess i was too caught up with "you have to learn everything", but of course you don't. anyway, how would you say the counterpoint voicings have affected your playing? can you improvise so that you can move inner voices etc. on tunes? how long did it take until you noticed results with counterpoint?
hepcat, could you answer my last question please? how should i go about learning counterpoint? should i write out counterpoint for a whole tune and play it through or is there an easier way?
i got solo jazz piano, the linear approach by neil olmstead. although i've just gotten into it a little and am hampered by some left elbow tendinitis he seems to concentrate on the left hand and counterpoint. in fact, the first words of the introduction define contrapuntal jazz improvisation. you might want to check this out.
sorry, i didn't notice you replied.
the counterpoint voicings have affected my playing inasmuch as it's something that i do now; now that i started to focus on that, it started to be something that i hear and that comes out in my playing. i also supplemented a lot of this with transcribing bill evans' and clare fischer's approach. they are two players i greatly admire that are great at this style.
i can improvise moving inner voices on tunes, yes. i don't know how long it took me to develop it, as it's not something i focused on that concretely. mostly by fooling around and experimenting over tunes, and transcribing great players, i became better at the technique. as for if you're expecting a timeline for results, i don't know what to say.
what i do know is:
playing luke's voicings in the book give you great ideas for places to start, get your hands in the habits, and show you the different tendencies of the tones at your disposal. the only way i think that a player can truly internalize everything in a practical way, however, is to take the ideas presented in the book and experiment over tunes on your own. i wouldn't write anything out, just try improvising. all 4 voices don't need to be moving at once! at first just try having the lowest voice on the root, the highest on the melody note, and the middle notes moving in smooth stepwise motion in logical ways to reach the notes of the next chord.
remember, motion can be parallel, contrary, or one voice moving while the other sustains a note!
in short, you won't start hearing it in your playing until you've listened to it enough. transcribe clare, bill, and all the others you admire that use this technique.
and i've learned more from bach's ricercare a 3 from the musical offering than i have in almost anything else.
the counterpoint voicings have affected my playing inasmuch as it's something that i do now; now that i started to focus on that, it started to be something that i hear and that comes out in my playing. i also supplemented a lot of this with transcribing bill evans' and clare fischer's approach. they are two players i greatly admire that are great at this style.
i can improvise moving inner voices on tunes, yes. i don't know how long it took me to develop it, as it's not something i focused on that concretely. mostly by fooling around and experimenting over tunes, and transcribing great players, i became better at the technique. as for if you're expecting a timeline for results, i don't know what to say.
what i do know is:
playing luke's voicings in the book give you great ideas for places to start, get your hands in the habits, and show you the different tendencies of the tones at your disposal. the only way i think that a player can truly internalize everything in a practical way, however, is to take the ideas presented in the book and experiment over tunes on your own. i wouldn't write anything out, just try improvising. all 4 voices don't need to be moving at once! at first just try having the lowest voice on the root, the highest on the melody note, and the middle notes moving in smooth stepwise motion in logical ways to reach the notes of the next chord.
remember, motion can be parallel, contrary, or one voice moving while the other sustains a note!
in short, you won't start hearing it in your playing until you've listened to it enough. transcribe clare, bill, and all the others you admire that use this technique.
and i've learned more from bach's ricercare a 3 from the musical offering than i have in almost anything else.
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