Fast 3rd, 4th, and 5th fingers, and double trills.
how fast can you trill with the 3rd, 4th, and 5th fingers?
is it possible to get all your fingers equal in strength?
my 1st, 2nd, and 3rd fingers are my strongest, and yet they are the ones i use most. i hardly ever use my 4th and 5th fingers. i can trill pretty well with my 3rd and 4th fingers, but my 4th and 5th finger trill suck!!! overall, i have fast fingers.
how many of you can do a double trill? i'm working on that right now.
i can't get my trill to last more than 3 seconds.
i'm learning james p. johnson's "carolina shout" and in the very beginning i can't get this to go fast enough:
the bb to the d, g, b
the ab to the a, eb, c
the g# to the b, e, g
and the g# to the b, d, and g
the rest of the song is fine though.
is it possible to get all your fingers equal in strength?
my 1st, 2nd, and 3rd fingers are my strongest, and yet they are the ones i use most. i hardly ever use my 4th and 5th fingers. i can trill pretty well with my 3rd and 4th fingers, but my 4th and 5th finger trill suck!!! overall, i have fast fingers.
how many of you can do a double trill? i'm working on that right now.
i can't get my trill to last more than 3 seconds.
i'm learning james p. johnson's "carolina shout" and in the very beginning i can't get this to go fast enough:
the bb to the d, g, b
the ab to the a, eb, c
the g# to the b, e, g
and the g# to the b, d, and g
the rest of the song is fine though.
There are 19 comments, leave a comment.
i don't know what you mean by strength, as applied to each individual finger. i would guess -- but i don't have any way of finding this out -- my 4 and 5 finger are just as "strong" as any others, but you'd never know, because it is not possible to achieve perfect finger independence.
i used to try to play the second movement of beethoven's last sonata, which has all kinds of internal trills, double trills -- my way of understanding it is that these are basically concert-repertoire-level techniques which are typically approached by very advanced students of classical music. i don't find any need for them in playing so i don't work on them anymore, and wouldn't be able to execute any of these advanced trills without practice and -- if i were smart -- a consultation with a real technician at the piano.
i seem to recall being taught to use much wrist side-to-side motion when performing shakes and trills -- the necessity for this only increases as you get to 4 and 5 (where the fingers cannot work independently) and so forth.
you are talking about doing something like trilling with 1 and 2 and 4 and 5 simultaneously when you talk about a double trill, right? (if not, i don't know what you mean by the term.)
i used to try to play the second movement of beethoven's last sonata, which has all kinds of internal trills, double trills -- my way of understanding it is that these are basically concert-repertoire-level techniques which are typically approached by very advanced students of classical music. i don't find any need for them in playing so i don't work on them anymore, and wouldn't be able to execute any of these advanced trills without practice and -- if i were smart -- a consultation with a real technician at the piano.
i seem to recall being taught to use much wrist side-to-side motion when performing shakes and trills -- the necessity for this only increases as you get to 4 and 5 (where the fingers cannot work independently) and so forth.
you are talking about doing something like trilling with 1 and 2 and 4 and 5 simultaneously when you talk about a double trill, right? (if not, i don't know what you mean by the term.)
each finger is different, they are not equal.
just my opinion - and sometimes i wish i never read it...but ive read more than once that art tatum was in favour of the bowling ball technique...
basically the thumb, index and middle finger handled most of the runs and melodies - which sounds simplistic...
until of course - you hear him play :)
i definately put more emphasis on these 3 fingers, and i know its not the best way to go about it...
but then...how often would you need to trill with fingers 4 and 5...id rather spend time working the fingers im more comfortable with
basically the thumb, index and middle finger handled most of the runs and melodies - which sounds simplistic...
until of course - you hear him play :)
i definately put more emphasis on these 3 fingers, and i know its not the best way to go about it...
but then...how often would you need to trill with fingers 4 and 5...id rather spend time working the fingers im more comfortable with
don patterson, the jazz organist best known for his ability to play fast bebop lines, played smoking lines using just those three fingers (1, 2, and 3). seems like a legitimate technique to me -- and it works, too.
has anyone tried playing runs with only 3rd, 4th, and 5th fingers but not with 1st, 2nd, and 3rd fingers?
i was thinking about doing runs and excersizes that only use the 3rd, 4th, and 5th fingers and not the 1st and 2nd fingers at all!
i was thinking about doing runs and excersizes that only use the 3rd, 4th, and 5th fingers and not the 1st and 2nd fingers at all!
just in case you get a little frisky with the old bandsaw over a few beers one night and lose those other "strong" fingers, right?
while you probably could do some of what you want to play as a hanon-style exercise, you'll be limited in how much you can achieve due to the physiology of the fingers, especially 4 and 5.
if you have the time to do these kind of abstract exercises, i'd stick with a method like hanon -- there are some *real* killers in there which will stretch your capacity of your "weaker" fingers to the max.
be careful -- seriously. you may end up destroying your ability to do what you already can do on the piano if you dive in willy-nilly. *especially* when trying to do things beyond the natural physiological capacities of the fingers and hands.
since you sound pretty serious about technique in the abstract, you'd do well to work with a *good* "legitimate" teacher who can observe and aid in proper posture and all aspects of physical control (from the shoulders to the fingertips).
while you probably could do some of what you want to play as a hanon-style exercise, you'll be limited in how much you can achieve due to the physiology of the fingers, especially 4 and 5.
if you have the time to do these kind of abstract exercises, i'd stick with a method like hanon -- there are some *real* killers in there which will stretch your capacity of your "weaker" fingers to the max.
be careful -- seriously. you may end up destroying your ability to do what you already can do on the piano if you dive in willy-nilly. *especially* when trying to do things beyond the natural physiological capacities of the fingers and hands.
since you sound pretty serious about technique in the abstract, you'd do well to work with a *good* "legitimate" teacher who can observe and aid in proper posture and all aspects of physical control (from the shoulders to the fingertips).
i actually do the hanon exercises first to get all my fingers working and then i do my own made up exercises-doing runs that use only the 3rd, 4h, and 5th fingers for extra practice. i uploaded an exercise similar to hanon that i practice everyday.
go to techniques and exercises: exercise 1
how do you guys like it?
go to techniques and exercises: exercise 1
how do you guys like it?
i don't mean to sound snarky, but why are you doing all of this, anyway?
while i'm skeptical of discipline for its own sake, rather than discipline applied to a real-world task, i'm genuinely curious about what drives you to practice this kind of stuff.
again, i'm really, honestly curious and i'd like to learn more.
while i'm skeptical of discipline for its own sake, rather than discipline applied to a real-world task, i'm genuinely curious about what drives you to practice this kind of stuff.
again, i'm really, honestly curious and i'd like to learn more.
most of the exercises that i do come from what we can do with our first three fingers, hanon exercises, and technical pieces that i know.
jaledin, what do you think of the exercise i made?
i just uploaded my second exercise.
i didn't have a chance to look at them yet. the scalar exercises in hanon (not including the exercises using "unfamiliar" fingerings and sustained notes simultaneous with trills) seem to build up to using the hand as the secondary mover behind a block of "keys" designed to be carried up or down the keyboard in an ergonomic, comfortable manner, subordinated to the prime mover of the elbow, and, ultimately, the whole body. since a great deal of repertoire can be played using this method, my tendency has always been to use the path of least resistance and go with it, until some specific challenge requires upping the ante. it was good enough for paderewski and brendel, so it's certainly good enough for me, who doesn't even play chamber music, let alone concert repertoire. i'm not so arrogant to suppose that you aren't much more facile on the keyboard than i am, nor that there aren't better pianists than the two i somewhat jokingly referenced above, but i wonder if you aren't succumbing to the "because it's there" school of thought, rather than getting down to the business of playing music.
i'm not any kind of technician though -- do you have a legit teacher? there are crummy ones who teach in colleges and universities who have given a generation of alumni *bad* problems with wrists, tendons, back, shoulders, but there are good ones who can help, and they're worth every penny you can save to study with them.
what's the deal, anyway? what's driving your desire to get into these techniques? again, i'm really curious about this.
i'm not any kind of technician though -- do you have a legit teacher? there are crummy ones who teach in colleges and universities who have given a generation of alumni *bad* problems with wrists, tendons, back, shoulders, but there are good ones who can help, and they're worth every penny you can save to study with them.
what's the deal, anyway? what's driving your desire to get into these techniques? again, i'm really curious about this.
well, i'm influenced by a lot of stride techniques, art tatum runs, and a lot of debussy.
but you don't need to hammer the pain on 4 and 5 to cop tatum, even though he's fast, and even though debussy has the "five fingers" etude, i can't think of needing to lean on 4 and 5 to play the etudes. i haven't done them all, granted, but i've read most of his music and i can't see that there's a lot of esoteric stuff in there worth killing yourself over. not that there aren't special cases and extremely demanding things in debussy, but those should be treated as such, imo.
what, specifically, do you want to play that you're having a problem with? in my experience a lot can be done with working out appropriate finger designations and exploiting basic principles which don't go a rebours -- tatum was smart, and also an addict, therefore he didn't use *anything* he didn't need to get the same effect. that, to me, is the hallmark of a great artist -- efficiency, no wasted motion or energy, and complete control over the final result.
some of debussy is beyond difficult -- are you really doing the hard stuff without a teacher? if so, i applaud your discipline, but i can't give any advice over the internet -- there's no cookie-cutter answer that will fit any average person's specific playing style and physiognomy.
what, specifically, do you want to play that you're having a problem with? in my experience a lot can be done with working out appropriate finger designations and exploiting basic principles which don't go a rebours -- tatum was smart, and also an addict, therefore he didn't use *anything* he didn't need to get the same effect. that, to me, is the hallmark of a great artist -- efficiency, no wasted motion or energy, and complete control over the final result.
some of debussy is beyond difficult -- are you really doing the hard stuff without a teacher? if so, i applaud your discipline, but i can't give any advice over the internet -- there's no cookie-cutter answer that will fit any average person's specific playing style and physiognomy.
i don't really play debussy's pieces. i actually improvise in the debussy style. i know that he tends to be more diatonic and that he uses a great deal of tenths, like his arabesque. i can use that fact to improve my ability to improvise in the debussy style.
it sounds like you're onto something pretty original and i admire that.
i'm just a pragmatist -- i practice what i want to play, and i don't worry about it from an abstract point of view.
for a long time (15+ years) i've been "into" scriabin -- and i play his music every chance i get. there's a particular piece of prelude, say, which uses an alien technique that i don't know; i learn the technique and play the prelude or whatever piece about which i care.
there's no magic key which opens all pieces of the repertoire -- there are only things one practices and things one has not practiced.
i'm just a pragmatist -- i practice what i want to play, and i don't worry about it from an abstract point of view.
for a long time (15+ years) i've been "into" scriabin -- and i play his music every chance i get. there's a particular piece of prelude, say, which uses an alien technique that i don't know; i learn the technique and play the prelude or whatever piece about which i care.
there's no magic key which opens all pieces of the repertoire -- there are only things one practices and things one has not practiced.
my desire for total technical versatility, including all strange fingerings and digging into hanon and czerny, is for one reason alone: i want to be able to play anything.
simple as that.
if i pick up a debussy piece, i'm not likely going to be able to play it using only the thumb and first couple of fingers.
i also like to have multiple voices in my playing. my fourth and fifth finger often play responses to melodic lines played with other fingers.
as jaledin says above, though, it all boils down to this: you practice what you want to play, period.
simple as that.
if i pick up a debussy piece, i'm not likely going to be able to play it using only the thumb and first couple of fingers.
i also like to have multiple voices in my playing. my fourth and fifth finger often play responses to melodic lines played with other fingers.
as jaledin says above, though, it all boils down to this: you practice what you want to play, period.
If I'm not back in 24 hours, call the president.
Scot is available for skype jazz piano lessons (and google hangouts, phone call, etc...)
Use the contact link at the top of the page.
Scot is available for skype jazz piano lessons (and google hangouts, phone call, etc...)
Use the contact link at the top of the page.
by Scot Ranney on 12/31/2007, 18:16
so hanon helps...
i've heard that some pianists 'constantly' drill their 4th and 5th fingers to achieve faster fingers. they might drill their fingers all day and every day if they have to until they have faster fingers - even when they're are not practicing the piano. do you know if this is a very efficient method or not?
i've heard that some pianists 'constantly' drill their 4th and 5th fingers to achieve faster fingers. they might drill their fingers all day and every day if they have to until they have faster fingers - even when they're are not practicing the piano. do you know if this is a very efficient method or not?
mastering the job of fingers:
https://www.learnjazzpiano.com/citadel/scotcit.mvc?action=files&sub=file_details&id=1130088903
https://www.learnjazzpiano.com/citadel/scotcit.mvc?action=files&sub=file_details&id=1130088903
Please sign in to post.
Jazz Piano Notebook Series
Volume 1 of this educational jazz piano book contains 15 jazz piano exercises, tricks, and other interesting jazz piano techniques, voicings, grooves, and ideas Scot Ranney enjoys playing.
"Latinesque"
Volume 2 has 14 jazz piano exercises and tricks of the trade, and quite a bit of it is Calypso jazz piano related material, including some Monty Alexander and Michel Camilo style grooves. Jazz piano education is through the ears, but books like this can help.
Volume 3 contains 12 jazz piano exercises and explorations by the acclaimed jazz piano educator, pianist, author, and recording artist Tim Richards.
Tim wrote the well known "Exploring Jazz Piano" and "Improvising Blues Piano" books and has several others to his name.
Volume 4 is by Jeff Brent, a jazz pianist, composer, teacher, and author of "Modalogy" and other acclaimed jazz theory and education books. In this book Jeff shares detailed analysis of transcriptions of live performances. He covers everything from the shape of the songs to the tricks and licks he uses in improvised lines to the ideas behind his lush chord voicings.
Most Recent Discussions
Articles
Piano for Adoption Scam
Aprender Jazz en Piano
BEWARE: FREE BABY GRAND PIANO SCAM
Oh Tannenbaum for Jazz Piano
Volume 5 of the "Jazz Piano Notebook Series" is Available!
LearnJazzPiano.com File Downloads News
more...
Top Sheetmusic Picks
Jazzy Christmas Arrangements
Cocktail Piano
Best Songs Ever, 6th Edition
Christmas Medley
Moana Songbook
Late Night Jazz Piano
Jazz piano education is cool.
Rock on. Follow your passion.
Sign In
privacy policy •
terms of service •
about
•
50,655 messages
63,069 accounts
57,172 logins
LearnJazzPiano.com Copyright © 1995-2024 by Scot Ranney • website software and design by scot's scripts
LearnJazzPiano.com is For Sale - Serious Inquiries Only
LearnJazzPiano.com Copyright © 1995-2024 by Scot Ranney • website software and design by scot's scripts
LearnJazzPiano.com is For Sale - Serious Inquiries Only