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hi, everyone!

thanks for taking the time to help me figure out this chord.
ok, so here it is.
i tried to do different combinations of 7th chords, just for fun and experimenting with different intervals to see what i could get.
so i thought i'd play a dimished tried and add a major 7th to it (so far, i don't know of a name for that time of 7th chord). so, this is what i ended up with:
c eb gb bbb (a)
then, just out of random, i added a natural b just underneath that c of the previously mentioned chord.  
i'm from spain, and just love flamenco and this sounded very flamenco to me. nevertheless i wouldn't know how to identify it. is it perhaps an inversion of some other chord?
thanks in advance for your advice!

cordially,
mestizzo
by on 01/04/2008, 17:53
There are 21 comments, leave a comment.
perhaps cdim/b?  if you only place the b at the bottom of the chord and don't voice it differently then that would be what the chord would be.  also cdim/b would be the easiest way of writing it.
LJP Like
  by on 01/04/2008, 17:58
b7b9
LJP Like
  by on 01/04/2008, 18:38
wow, thank you so much!
great help!
LJP Like
  by on 01/04/2008, 19:44
you can raise any chord tone in a diminished 7th chord by a whole step, or add a tone a whole step higher than any chord tone (it's like adding extensions). this works because all the notes are still part of the same diminished scale. doing this does not require changing the name of the chord and jazz pianist frequently tweak their diminished chord voicings with whole tones.
LJP Like
  by on 01/04/2008, 20:45
this gives the chord and modern, dissonant, new york jazz sort of jazz sound. you can also consider it as an inversion of b7b9 with the b9 in the bass!
LJP Like
  by on 01/04/2008, 21:00
it is a b7b9 (as jeff brent wrote).  ted hawkes, is cdim/b really the way they would notate that chord in britain?  i ask your opinion because i'm sure you run across a lot of notation as the "musical director for tv and broadway/west end shows..."
LJP Like
  by on 01/05/2008, 00:03
'then, just out of random, i added a natural b just underneath that c of the previously mentioned chord'.  

then i mentioned.

'if you only place the b at the bottom of the chord and don't voice it differently then that would be what the chord would be.  also cdim/b would be the easiest way of writing it.'

i think you will find that if you do this and don't allow for inversions, the easiest way of writing the chord is cdim/b.  yes in britain that would be the best way of writing that inversion, and im sure in any country that would be the most simplest way of writing the inversion.  if mestizzo allows inversions then indeed it is b7b9, however he clearly said that he added the b natural underneath the cdim chord.  can you please tell me how you would communicate this specific inversion of a b7b9 chord on paper other than cdim/b?
LJP Like
  by on 01/05/2008, 02:12
i can't think of anywhere where i have ever seen a diminished chord noted as the upper structure of a slash chord. i mean, i can't think of when it would ever be useful to notate a chord that way. cdim/b=b7b9. cdim/ab=ab7b9, cdim/f=f7b9. cdim/d=d7b9. dom7b9 is such a common chord in jazz, i would find it annoying and confusing if i came across those chords written any other way when i'm trying to read through a chart.

if the chord mestizzo described was inverted so that any note of the chord other than b was on the bottom, i would agree with jazz+, it'd just be a c dim chord with an extension added to it.
LJP Like
  by on 01/05/2008, 04:07
oh, and meztizzo- there is a scale called the "spanish phrygian" that can go  well with this chord to give it a very flamenco like sound, maybe that's what you're hearing
LJP Like
  by on 01/05/2008, 04:23
yes you are right, it is never seen written as a slash chord, however if you are sight reading a chart, and the arranger wants a specific voicing for that bar of music, he would write cdim/b, not b7b9 as this implies he wants you to play b, dsharp, fsharp, a, c and not b, c, dsharp, fsharp, a.  

also, the way that mezitzzo spelled the chord implies that he is referring to diminished harmony and not a b7, (he used eb and gb instead of dsharp and fsharp).

i can promise you that if you were playing for a session with say a big band, the arranger would write it as a slash chord if he wanted that particular voicing.  i cannot think of another way of writing that particular voicing that can be read quickly.  

but in general - yes it is a b7b9 chord, but the way it was spelt and voiced is a clue to how you would write the chord for arranging purposes.
LJP Like
  by on 01/05/2008, 06:08
as i've checked out a lot of the sites online i've come across that referred to as a dim/maj7 as well....as far as phyrigian harmony,here's a good site to know about-
LJP Like
  by on 01/05/2008, 10:59
( cdim7/b or c°7/b ).
LJP Like
  by on 01/06/2008, 16:52
how about this symbol

c dim maj7
LJP Like
  by on 01/06/2008, 16:57
i would interpret that symbol: (c dim maj7)

c eb gb b

which is different from the chord cited in the original question here.

clearly the original chord is a b7b9 - especially since the b is the bottom note.  we all know flat 9 chords have a diminished sounding quality to them - for obvious reasons...

this is an excellent example of how silly theory can be :)
LJP Like
  by on 01/06/2008, 19:42
it could equally be any of these chords
b7b9
d7b9
ab7b9#9
f7b9b5
cdim7
ebdim7
f#07
a07
LJP Like
  by on 01/06/2008, 20:03
i forgot to read the original question...i thought he wanted a specific symbol for c eb gb b (thus the unusual c dim maj7 suggestion)

of course it's closest to b7b9 if b is on the bottom and if b is considered to be the root.
LJP Like
  by on 01/06/2008, 22:03
was supposed to be "c with a little circle in the air 7th over b"

the secret code for "the little circle in the air" is alt+0176, but i guess this website doesn't like "alt characters"
LJP Like
  by on 01/06/2008, 22:53
well done 7!  i couldn't work out how to do the small circle!  thats how i tried to write it but i couldn't work out how to do it with out making it look like a 0.
LJP Like
  by on 01/07/2008, 01:19

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