i just bought myself a ticket to see chick corea in boston next wednesdaay night.  wondering if anybody else from this forum is going?
There are 70 comments, leave a comment.
where do you get it. sounds kind of illegal.
it is illegal.  it's stealing from publishers who have just as much trouble making ends meet as musicians do.
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they are available on ebay - i wonder why they haven't been shut down yet.  

although scot is right that purchasing these books is illegal in most countries, it is not quite true that it is "stealing".  copyright is a policy tool to provide economic incentives to innnovation, and it exists under statute in most countries.  "stealing" is a common law concept, and has much deeper roots and is a moral as well as a legal concept.  

many people argue that copyright stifles innovation and channels money from artists to corporate publishers.  peer to peer networks such as limewire also raise these issues.

i am not as moralist about this as scot (see my article https://www.austlii.edu.au/au/journals/muruejl/2004/7.html)
sorry, that link doesn't work, it should be (not that i imagine anyone cares):  https://www.austlii.edu.au/au/journals/muruejl/2004/7.html
i have to agree with scot that it is stealing.  intellectual property is certainly property, and a person has a right to be compensated for it.  if somebody takes your property without compensating you for it, it's stealing.
g-,
   have you ever made any money from music, publishing, or any other copyrighted work?  my guess is no.  if this was a source of income for you then you'd probably feel very different.  you're on a musician's message board where many of us either directly or indirectly pay our bills because of these laws.   it is stealing!
james3
(a) yes, i have made money from copyright, including songwriting royalties and publishing royalties;
(b) because it is illegal, i don't think people should infringe copyright.
(c) i think copyright is probably good policy, but that it is policy, just as patent law is policy, firearm law is policy, laws about drugs are policy, traffic laws are policy, tax  laws are policy - stealing, however, cuts deeper than this, as does other criminal law.
(d) steady on with the personal attacks, young man.
i think g makes a valid distinction between stealing and copyright infringement.  if i steal your money, you no longer have it.  if i obtain copies of your music without paying for it, you have lost potential income, but you are not less whole than before.

i play mostly by ear...am i ripping people off?
...just food for thought
maybe if people can download music for free thus big corporations and manufactured succes artists loose interest in making music because there wont be money no more so only real musicians will stick to the trade because for them its not only about the money  
people will be more musically educated with amount of quality free music and they will want to see more live music and have more cash to pay for expensive entry fees and so may of a musician will be able to quit his day job
damn good point there dr. whack about the playin by ear thing.  
people are always stealin licks  everyone on this site is even telling all the newbies they are never gonna get any good at playin unless they steal steal steal those licks... transcribe, transcribe, transcribe.
steal steal steal.  it is so sick.  ya they reccomend put on trane steal every lick he plays on my favorite things.  i mean the poor guy is innocently playing a childrens tune and everyone is stealing every little idea that pops into his head on a childrens tune no less ... same thing when he plays chim chim chiree.  it like a form of pedaphelia.   argh.
yeah....and what's the deal with free "public domain" music?  why can't i print my favorite bach inventions in a book and sell it to my students?  i'm sure bach wouldn't care.  why are there some editions of his music for sale and some "public domain"

it seems we have some more hairs to split and lines to draw...
as i understand u.s. copyright law, any work published before 192? (i'm not sure of the exact date, whenever steamboat willie was made) is (potentially) copyrighted, but works before then have had their copyright long since expire.  i pay for music books with very old music (bach, etc.) in it for the convenience of having someone more talented and resourceful than i transcribe and/or research the tune, but the tune itself (as i understand it) isn't copyrighted in the u.s.
the problem with current copyright laws is that they were written long ago and haven't been properly updated with the latest advances in technology (downloading, dvd burning, etc).  it's also a case on how once can interperate the laws especially the definition of "fair use".  

dr. whack and i have a mutually friend that has done a lot of research in this area.  he wanted to use a popular song as a soundtrack to some home movies he took and was going to distribute to his parents and siblings.  he called sony and talked to their clearance department.  it was going to cost him something like $800 to legally use that song since he was technically distributing it...it went beyond personal use.

when i write charts for my band using encore or finale (or handwritten), i am technically in violation of copyright infringement.  same thing with writing lyrics out on a piece of 8 1/2 x 11 piece of paper.  ever notice when a artist covers a tune, those lyrics are usually never reprinted in the liner notes, unless it's a major artist that can afford to?  

here's an interesting site on copyright and public domain if you want to read more...

https://www.pdinfo.com/copyrt.htm
the discussion of ownership can open a real pandora's box of philosophical (and hopefully for the purpose of this forum, rhetorical:) questions.  do we really have the right to own anything?  take land for instance.  the planet was here long before any of us were, so how is it we actually claim to own any part of it? hmmm....  and what about oil?  it's in the ground, like water, dirt, grass, food, etc...oh boy...what am i starting here?  heh heh
take my ex wife for example.  bitch was cheating on me in less than a year of marraige.  i thought i had a piece of paper saying i owned that bioch.  but no!!!  unless you got a chain and lock on it and a gun aimed at it brother bewqre!!!
marriage has changed.  the piece of paper used to say that you owned her - now it says that she owns half of you.
well, i haven't seen the exact thing on ebay you're talking about, but i think i've seen the same package elsewhere.  going back to how the realbooks spread in the firstplace, through illegal copying and general grassroots "piracy", i think it's inevitable that realbooks to get handed around.

but!!!  if someone scans it, puts it on a disk, and sells it as their own product, that's just downright wrong.  it's infringing, and straight forward stealing, because the seller is actually making profit by not doing any work.  that's different from simply copying and being compensated for minimal cost. (which seems to me, is less for direct profit)

c'mon, the realbook have been re-issued in a legit way.  forget the looser who's trying to make money from nothing, and help keep the industry alive.  the new realbooks have lots of corrections and are more accurate anyway.
who's to say that the seller even scanned it himself?  it's like a virus, you could simply buy it on pdf, then sell it on.
the other night, a girl asked me what was the second song we did on that set. i answered ''maiden voyage'' by herbie hancock.  

the next week she came to me and said that she bought the cd and thanked me to introduce her to a wonderful artist.

i didn't bought the cd and didn't bought the real book...(downloaded them)

but i'm sure herbie will forgive me...
bud, that's a perfect example of the other side of the arguement!!  i'm sure the artists are glad that cover bands are keeping their songs alive and the exposure leading to further sales or legal downloads, but unless your playing in a venue that is paying extortion money (which is really what it is) to the publishing houses, you legally can't.
bud, the club you performed in is paying a fee to the composer's organization for the licensing of the tunes that are performed in public there.  that's how it works.
larry, it's not extortion money, it's how the composers get paid.
cynbad,

"the club you performed in is paying a fee to the composer'sat organization for the licensing of the tunes that are performed in public there."

not being a pro, i'm wondering how that works.  does the club track the playlist and pay on a song-specific schedule, or is there just some sort of set fee that gets split by everyone in the composer's guild regardless of what music is played?
cynbad, sorry, what i mean by extortion money is the fee a club pays.  if i do a club date and play 4 hours of frank zappa covers, frank's estate will not get 4 hours worth of that fee the club had pay the mafia, i mean ascap and bmi.  there's no possible way to track that.  that's why there are many clubs/venues that do not allow cover tunes to be played, only originals.  who's profiting most my that club fee are the salaries of the ascap and bim officers.

composers should get paid by airplay, sales/downloads, and sales of sheetmusic, not by coverbands or the venues they play in.  what if bud wasn't playing a club, but in somebody's backyard or a park pavilion.  the way the law is written, he technically can't play covers unless he gets clearance from the publishers of the songs his group will be performing.

ascap and bmi (as well as the major labels) are still trying to survive on a outdated business model that doesn't take into consideration the digital age we live in.
ya i didnt by my bioch on ebay either.  y'know too bad i did not then pay paal would have had to re imburse me or something.
it kind of boils down to how you feel about taking something from someone that they worked very hard on.  if you don't care about that kind of stuff, it's your choice, but i feel a responsibility to respect the work that goes into publishing a book or putting out a cd.

i download tons of music online.  if i like it, i usually buy a cd.  i enjoy being able to "preview" the music before buying.

i also have a lot of those pdf files of real books, but most of them i own a hard copy of also. i figure if i own a hard copy there's no problem with having a pdf, it just makes things easier some times.

i know chuck sher personally (sort of) and we've discussed the whole pirate cd thing on several occasions.  i feel like when you get one of those cds and use them for everything, you have no incentive to pay the paltry $30 or whatever it is for one of those books.  in my book that's stealing, plain and simple.  

i don't judge people on their moral levels of existence, i couldn't care less, but i think that we all have to support each other as artists and jazzers because we're a family of sorts.  there's not a lot of us out there.  that's why i go to lots of concerts, even if i don't like them, buy cds from musicians even if i never listen to them, buy the books instead of using the dvd full of pdf files.  in my life, friends and family come first, even if i don't know who they all are.
If I'm not back in 24 hours, call the president.

Scot is available for skype jazz piano lessons (and google hangouts, phone call, etc...)
Use the contact link at the top of the page.
about that extortion money,here in spain we have sgae and they even charge a sort of canon tax on blank recordable cd´s nationvide and a poor gypsi busker guitarist in granada who plays around the town in the restaurants told me that he had to pay sgae for the songs he plays ,there are quick to collect but slow and buirocratic  to pay a small composer(myself)
cflat

the club pays a fee to an association that distributes royalties to songwriters, as do radio stations etc.  the association does surveys and collects data about songs that are played, and pays royalties based on the frequency, and the size of the audience being played to.  

an artist who plays his or her own music in clubs and is a member of the association can lodge a claim, detailing the dates and venues at which the song was played, and the size of the audience.  you will then receive a payout based on that information.

this is based on my experience in australia, but it is the same in the us, see, e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ascap
interesting discussion for sure.  i'm glad we're having it.  

not to pick on scot, but i think his comments are typical of a lot of folks.    most of us have illegal copies of software, printed music, recordings, etc. and we  justify in our minds how and when we will actually pay for it - some will actually a buy a legal copy and feel good about it, and some will never buy a legal copy and feel good about that as well.  so if we're all drawing our own lines anyway, why do we have the laws?  maybe they're not reasonable laws.  maybe they are out dated and out of touch.
i notice we've gotten off topic a bit.  the original question was about paying for a cd that had 40 fake books on it. it's one thing to freely share copyrighted stuff, it's quite another to make copies and sell them - that is bs... (i guess that's where i draw my line- heh heh)
thanks, dr. whack, i did get off target there.  i share the same crooked line that you do.  the frustrating part is when you try to do the right thing and buy sheet music legally on line but sometimes:
1) lead sheets typically cost $4.95 per song if one exist
2) lead sheets may not be for the exact arrangement you are looking for
3) lead sheets are available only in a song book collection where you will never use any of the other songs in the book and must pay anywhere from $15 to $30
4) and if all else fails and i write my own lead sheet, i'm breaking the law.

if they would lower the price point of a download lead sheet to something like $0.25 to $0.50, more people would buy the stuff legally and composers would make more based on volume.  the same applies to the music download industry.

only learn the songs you love and that really turn you on (unless someone is paying you to learn a song that you have no interest in).

if you really love a song and it's a must-have, you will do whatever it takes, by any means necessary to make it part of you.

first and foremost listen, but also ask questions of other musicians if something eludes you, buy videos and interactive software, network online, etc. your native curiosity will pay off in droves if you couple it with the hard work required to achieve your musical goals.

7


just in case you might think that that means that i have a stack of real books or other fakebooks that i got for free (read: stolen), i do not.
i think the reason fake books were  created was so musicians could "fake" their way through tunes they didn't know - on unfamiliar gigs.  i don't think they were intended to be used for inspiration.  

they can  be a vast resource for  obscure tunes though. not all tunes (especially old ones) are available in mp3, or even vinyl for that matter.  ya never know what gems you may find.  and if you find  a gem are two, chances are the composer is dead and would probably respect your bringing new life to his/her tuneage.  heck a publisher that owns the rights would probably gain from your reviving those relics   (there i go, justifying and drawing lines again)
*gem or two" jeesh!
i also one to try to complicate a simple topic.  some old timers at bezerkly might say the real book was simply an ear training assignment for one of his ear training classes one semester and it got a little out of hand.  maybe he is proud of the magnitude the assignment took on.   then by the time i attended bezerkly in the early eighties, i along with all other bezerkly students were required to buy a copy from the copy store around the corner which sold them pretty much out in the open.  when i went to bezerkly owning a real book was required.
gigging in the boston area also would have been difficult as well.  if you were hired for any pick up gig whether it be jazz or general business it was assumed you would have a real book with you.  real book tunes were called and if you did not have one, the tune was counted off anyways and you were just left to look like a fool.
even though it is not like that anymore i still religiously take a real book to any gig i go to just because i am from that era and i have the fear ingrained into me of an obscue real book tune being called that i do not know and i will not have my book.
heh heh - i started going out on gigs with my dad when i was 15.  he handed me a fake book (predecessor to the "real book"), but there was no time to fumble through it.  those guys played 45 minutes sets that sounded like one long tune - they would string tunes together and just give me the hand signal for the new key and play, whether i knew the tunes or not...i learned a plethora of tunes that way (they're all printed on my face from falling on them)
larryc, i don't believe transcribing something and making your own "lead sheet" constitutes "breaking the law".  that's just learning something by ear.

it's not breaking the law at all.  now, maybe if you made copies of your transcription and sold them to other people for money, that would be breaking the law...
larryc is a local band leader.  i think what he is saying is that writes lead sheets to use on gigs - for himself and his players, which probably is illegal since he is profiting from it...but then again don't we all profit from tunes we learn?  there are a lot of gray areas here even though the laws are pretty black and white
i write lead sheets for my students as well...i am going to hell for sure:)
sorry larryc - i hope i didn't just incriminate the two of us!  see you in club fed:)
as long as you two are not selling those lead sheets, i absolve you of all sin, my sons.
the goddess cynbad
that reminds me, i used to have a jazz piano teacher, some 30 years ago, who each week would write out the tunes he wanted me to work on, by hand, straight out of his own brain, in black felt-tip pen, into a wire-bound manuscript book.  he could write out those lead sheets from memory at the speed of light.  he was amazing.  he was like the bionic musician or something.  i still have that manuscript book with all those tunes in them.  it's one of the better fake books i have.
cynbad, that's almost exactly the way eddie wied worked when i took lessons from him.  most amazing!!  i still treasure those sheets.  i have a couple where he first just wrote the tune and changes and the next week (in a different pen) filled in an arrangement.  great stuff.
cynbad, you could be right or wrong based on how you read and interpret the following definition of copyright:

if any music or lyrics are still under copyright protection  

*you cannot reproduce the music or lyrics  
*you cannot distribute the music or lyrics either for free, for no profit, or for profit  
*you cannot perform the music or lyrics in public  
*you cannot play a recording of the music or lyrics in public--even if you own the cd  
*you cannot make a derivative work or arrangement for public use in any form
dr. whack, you would make a fine cell mate as long as you don't drop that bar of soap in the shower constantly....  :-0
well perhaps you should define your interpretation of the word "constantly" heh heh :)
yeah, larry, you're right, the laws need to be updated.
i remember playing in music competitions (classical) -- you had to provide two or three copies of the score of whatever you were playing... and i don't mean "copies", they had to be original books or sheet music that were purchased, each one.  so the judges could look at the music as you were playing.  i always thought that was ridiculous...
sdm, i took lessons from a guy named mort mann in denver, colorado.
from what i can tell on the internet, it appears he is still alive and playin' with his own big band!
so apparently if we transcribe tunes in order to teach them to someone that is legal?
jmkarns, i would assume transcribing the head of a tune falls uner "reproducing the music".  however, i wouldn't think transcribing a solowould fall under the same copywrite issue, just like you can't copyright chord changes.

i was currious how the suits divy up the money collected from bar owners (my frank zappa example), and they use the documented number of plays on radio, tv and movie percentages and statistics.  so if i did the hypothetical tribute to zappa at a club, frank's estate would not see a dime, yet miley cyruss, the jonus brothers and coldplay (and whoever else is hot at the time) would get a percentage of the license fee.

moral of the story....screw jazz and let's all become pop music writers!  :-)
as i understand it, melodies are copyrightable.

since a solo is typically a melody, i'm pretty sure you can copyright them.

just as a bass line is a melody (remember huey lewis vs ghostbustes?)
i knew some people and their job was to sit in clubs and they got paid a few measly cocktails to write out the cover song list so bmi could prove they should be paid by the club.
"just as a bass line is a melody (remember huey lewis vs ghostbustes?)"

or queen vs. vanilla ice!  :-)
this is maybe off topic a bit....but this evening my wife (singer) was learning some old beach boys tune for tomorrow night.  they sent her an mp3 & the "sheet music".  while both are probably infringements of copyright, the part that really should be illegal is the wrong notes and chords on the sheet music.  how can they mistake a c dim7 for and a6/c#??  i can sort of understand how they forgot to include a natural sign on a c, but not when the chord symbol is way off too.  and they expect people to pay for this crap? oy
i have this new thing i like to do.  i call it 'guerilla sitting".  i have a battery powered amplifier and a keytar with battery powered tone module.  i walk into clubs where people are gigging and just start playing along with them uninvited.  i sit in with them by force.  then if they complain i say 'what are you going to do call the police on me?"
what would they tell the police?  lol   point is it is pretty hard to enforce a lot of things musicians do that people do not want us to do.  so i like to take advantage and do them,  but thats just me.
now as lonv as we are going to allow our selves to a bit off point dr. let me add this tid bit of advice.  if you plan on robbing a bank anytime in the near future i reccomend you do not write the note you are going to give to the bank teller on the back of one of your personal checks.
dohp!  too late!
dear mike. breaking your guitar over your freakin head is one possibility i can think of. then you could call the police
well that is the point though.  that would be something to call the police about.  that is assault.  but before that what is the band going to say when they call?  "someone is playing music with us!!!"?
well then ,how about the police remove you from the premises and you are charged with ? disturbing the peace? trespassing? air pollution, jaywalking ,etc;then you could play to an attentive audience while in the slammer?
isn't that called "open mike".  he he
bravo jm
so far charlp that has not happened and i do not expect any policeman
would stetch the law  that far if they want to keep their jobs.

i like that jm.
do you all feel it is alright to play uninvited at someones gig and interrupt it?what recourse do the musicians and the club owners have?stretching the law? i think the owner has the right to kick you out and or call the police if you refuse to go.what law gives you the right to do this?
rofl
mike, here in montreal, canada, i just have to make a little sign to the doorman and your off the stage so quickly that the audience will even not notice what happened and we didn't had even have to stop the song!

lol

p.s.: i don't like those intruders. especially when they are better than me! double lol
lmao mike
now there is an idea!!!  i had not even thought of invading foreign countries yet.
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