how would you call this scale:

c db e f g ab b c

it's very close to the 5th mode of the f harmonic scale, except for that b natural, which is the #4 of the minor scale.  

or would you look at it differently?

no real reason, just curious.
There are 22 comments, leave a comment.
that's called a gypsy scale, it's a double harmonic minor kind of thing..

df
hi duskop,

i loved your post on rythmn and it spoke very easy to me. i know there is something equally important here but i cannot translate it, maybe you or others can help ????

                       best regards
                                    paul
another way to visualize it is as a dbmaj7 chord with leading tones on each chord tone
this is the antithesis to your post on rhythm.  all this thinking you ae talking about is for the classroom and the practice room not for when you are soloing.  i just barely think about scales when i am actually in the heat of a solo in a performance.  i definitely do not think of runing one scale into another scale as you start out saying so you lose me right away in this post.  neither do i think dominant scales a majority of the time when i am in fact thinking scales.  for example if i am thinking a scale over c7 i am much more likely to be thinking bb lydian, eb major, c altered, db lydian or any of a half dozen different pentatonic scales than i am to be thinking c mixolydian which i rarely if ever use anymore over c7 unless i am playing childrens tunes for children maybe.
or a charity event at a hospice.
duskop,
these have been around for a long time, but they speak to me directly !! if you watch all 5 you will see something very real between bill and his brother and even steve allen as to trying to convey  it !!!!  

" runing one scale into another scale "

watch all 5 of these and see if you get the idea that this was the approach that was used that led to improv

  

  lite up a cig or smoke pour a beverage and watch all 5 and see if it speaks to you !!!

                    best regards
                                paul
hmmmm !!!!

so far i detect no female response to this post???

                  best regards
                                  paul


again, im lost too, cuz scales mean nothing without the underlying harmony.

you dont understand harmmony then all the scales in the world wont help you, you will just wander aimlessly.
i like your contribution to ljp theory,duskop.....why not make a file out of it(like i used to do here a lot a few years back )and set up a room?good way of dealing with this stuff.....here's a file i put together which could be used by people who are interested in following up on the type of things raised by the thread-
duksop

excellent post, and v useful as i've been going through barry harris' videos for a while now.
a quick question id welcome any ideas on - is what do you play when you see a minor which is not part of a ii-v ?
e.g. if im in g major - its cool to play d7 over an am (am-d7=ii-v), but what if i get an e minor (vi), now playing a7 takes me somewhere maybe a bit too far out - so i'd welcome any suggestions on this.

you've clearly got barry's stuff down. what what be great is if you had a similar sort of summary for his piano technique. i've got it as far as i) translate chord into 6th ii) alternate between 6th and diminished, however try as i might - it just doesn't sound right.

shaun
...and on a similar point - how would you apply this to a situation where there is no dominant...lets say the first couple of bars of 'my romance'

d - emin - f# min - f dim...

would you just play d6 over all of these (presumably ending on an fdim note.
s
shauncooper76 --  

here, fdim functions as a dominant -- it leads to the emin in the next measure, and is equivalent to b7 here.

scales are derived from chords -- when i was learning to improvise i thought about chords rather than scales. as piano players, we often improvise while comping for ourselves...when many beginning players examine their lines and hear them unaccompanied by comping, they may find that their lines sound directionless and noodly. this often is what happens when people just play with a scale without being conscious of the underlying harmony. in charlie parker's and john coltrane's playing, you can nearly always hear the underlying harmony if you listen to their lines isolated. in coltrane's playing especially, where a common technique is to imply different chord changes than the rhythm section is playing, clarity of harmony is imperative. i caution any beginners learning from this approach to always be thinking thoughtfully about the underlying harmony, and its function, not just scales.

i spent some time with the great piano player michael weiss, a disciple of barry harris's, and he had a great way of conceptualizing comping and chord voicings derived largely from the bebop scales. it was very interesting.

hm
hm -  

thanks very much - will give this some thought.
hello group,

so far, duskop never responds to this or the other post !!!!!

     i guess we must assume some sign of respect of a message he is giving us ????

            best regards  
                           paul
associations, associations, associations... different strokes for different folks... tt all sounds about the same whether you associate mostly to the dominant bebop scale or diminsihed scale (everything repeats at a minor 3rd)... or associate to a lydian scale (george russell)... or associate to major scale modes and or the modes of melodic minor. it all ends up sounding about the same in the end.
well the melodic minor modes are the ones that really stand out as sounding rather mpdern and different to me. have you ever heard what john stowell does with his obsession with the modes of melodic minor?
hey barry harris, what about major 7th chords???
answer: the major bebop scale.

by the way barry harris preaches the dominant bebop scale, the major bebop scale, d the diminished scales, not just plain mixolydian.
what does john stowell do? john's one of my favorite guitar players; he came to my high school and played one day, and that was one of the things that got me very interested in jazz.

hm
'by the way barry harris preaches the dominant bebop scale, the major bebop scale, d the diminished scales, not just plain mixolydian. '

jazz+ - youre quite right - but its almost as if there's a lot less attention to those. im not sure the minor scale stuff is fully covered.

the problem is - i find that when i use these scales the solo tends not to sound as strong...not sure why.
of course i forgot the minor bebop scale too ( c d eb f g g# a b ). the course i took from him was all voicing patterns, blosk chords, licks,  bebop scales (major, minor, & dominant) and diminshed scale. of course those are the main scales in bop.
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