Renee Rosnes
so, continuing in the underrated vein, i have always enjoyed renee rosnes' music - maybe not the most ground breaking, but always hangs together very well. i spoke with a young, fairly well known jazz pianist about her, and while not criticizing, he kind of wrinkled his nose and didn't say anything, which i took to mean that he didn't agre with me. am i just too mediocre myself to know? i really like her music. is she great, or not? i'd like to know the opinions of the more musically advanced members.
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hmmm...sounds like your friend is a little pompous and disrespectful...or perhaps he was holding back a sneeze:)
we like what we like and who we like, plain and simple. perhaps we should try harder to like those we don't like too much - like maybe we've missed the point or something, but we should never feel bad, uneducated or inferior because of who or what we like...
~just my two cents
(i used "like" 8 times including this postscript)
we like what we like and who we like, plain and simple. perhaps we should try harder to like those we don't like too much - like maybe we've missed the point or something, but we should never feel bad, uneducated or inferior because of who or what we like...
~just my two cents
(i used "like" 8 times including this postscript)
i like that you phrased it like that. to like something like you really like it is like nothing else in like the whole world. like one time i decide to like something like something that i did not like and i really like the way it like turned out. sorry dr. whack, mike made me do that.
never heard of her, which is mostly a point in her favor.
i like a lot of her stuff. she's very good, not one of my very favorites, but very good. she's married to bill charlap, whose playing i love.
she's a totally competant inventive jazz pianist. as for 'young lions', technic does not equal great jazz. though the bar for both excellant classical and jazz young playing is getting scary. some of these kids must be thinking hanon after getting shot out the canon.
in the late 80's/90's she was very active,played w/a lot of groups including her own.....i think she was the original player with a group blue note put together w/ kenny garrett which put out a couple of good albums.......can't remember the name of it...
i have her album art & soul, which has a great version of footprints (also featuring a guest spot from diane reeves singing some pretty cool stuff). i like her style a lot. and we need more woman pianists in this world of jazz which is often so male dominated.
maybe the guy who wrinkled his nose hadn't heard of her, and didn't like to admit it? or maybe he just heard one track or caught her on a duff gig. we sometimes judge people unfairly and write them off for life on the strength of one small showing. i've done it myself and probably missed out on a lot of good music as a result!
maybe the guy who wrinkled his nose hadn't heard of her, and didn't like to admit it? or maybe he just heard one track or caught her on a duff gig. we sometimes judge people unfairly and write them off for life on the strength of one small showing. i've done it myself and probably missed out on a lot of good music as a result!
why do we need more woman pianists? i can not see the logic in that. can you point out the if ... then ... else statement to me that leads you to the conclusion that we "need" more woman pianists. personally i think the history of jazz piano has done quite well though male dominated. i could see an argument being made that the world could use more woman leaders and use history to show that a male dominated polical structure has lead to too many wars... but male dominated jazz piano has lead to great piano music as far as i am concerned and in my life i have a rule "if it aint broken... dont fix it"
besides, we let em sing, that really oughta be enough.
i would hate to think that mike is not being sarcastic. we need more appreciation and therefore more players of all types in jazz. limiting anything by exclusion is very counter-productive. but one thing i know is that mike says what he thinks and that alone is refreshing in some disconcerting way.
anyone who hasn't heard her should check out her solos with jj johnson on youtube. pretty nice. nothing to do with her gender.
i agree with mike. it's okay to let them sing, because they can go get us drinks while we're playing our solos. if we let them play piano we will have to wait until the breaks to get refills
"exclusion"? that is ridiculous. the only reason why girls do not get jobs playing in the clubs i get jobs in is because they are not as good as i am. in fact luckily they suck. if they did not they would get the job because lord knows they are better looking than i am and they also are smarter than i am. so club owners would give them the jobs in a second over me if it was not for that they suck and i do not. there is no "exclusion' at work here... they just cant play.
so if a guy is prettier than you gets the gig, that's ok? i know plenty of musicians that don't get gigs just because of their appearance. some of the best are flat ugly and that is a shame. gender, appearance, sexual orientation, religion, nationality, ethnicity, and all the others should have no place in any selection criteria. being able to deliver the product is what's important and there are hundreds if not more females that can deliver better than i in many categories including playing jazz piano. i know that you are an excellent pianist mike, but methinks you are amiss on this. as always, this is just my humble opinion.
i was just being silly. we have some female players round these parts that will knock your socks off...
(and i'm happy to get their drinks for them:)
(and i'm happy to get their drinks for them:)
mike-just because you might have not heard of their name does not mean there are not a lot of really good female jazz pianists out there. are you serious? where did you place mary lou williams, mcpartland, norma teagarden, rosewomen, bley, in your book?
i'd admit there's more males than females, but the problem in this business has always been trying to get exposure. male or female. there are so many fine musicians out there, but the u.s. media would rather ignore jazz instead. jazz challenges the brain rather than repressing it.
i'd admit there's more males than females, but the problem in this business has always been trying to get exposure. male or female. there are so many fine musicians out there, but the u.s. media would rather ignore jazz instead. jazz challenges the brain rather than repressing it.
i did not say there have not been many great woman pianists. do not be mis quoting me now. i did say there has been no exclusionary practices against them. they are not more prominent in the idiom because they do not deserve to be and on that you may quote me. the great women pianists, nina simone, nadia boulanger, etc get their due in comparison to there male counterparts equally or more so. these great woman pianist however have been rare exceptions. in my long local career i have never been challenged for a gig by a woman though there have often been male pianists willing to knife me in the back in one way or another to steal a gig from me. the one time i did hear of a local woman pianist and used here to fill in for me on a gig... the club owner the next week said to me "she cant play...use here again and i will fire you".
you have the stories about how miles davis broke the race bariers hiring bill evans as his piano player instead of a black player. where are the stories about him breaking the sex bariers hiring a woman piano player... it is not because of "exclusion"... that is bullshit... there were none that could compete with bill or chick or keith and that is all there is to it.. miles always hired the best available ... end of story... he would have hired a martian if that was who could play best.
mike, i disagree with you but i appreciate your comments. gender based roles are assigned at an early age and that pattern is hard to break, but it needs to be broken. exclusion is my choice of words whenever one group is seen as less capable than another. i just don't believe that women are rare exceptions in this matter and that is just my belief. i always read your comments but never, ever do i quote you, if i were to quote you i would put it in quotation marks. i just take my interpretation of what i glean from your remarks and try and input my thoughts. i mean no disrespect to you. my intent is not to cause you distress or demean you or your opinions. i will admit that i do enjoy teasing you on occasion in large part because i like a lot of what you say and figure that if you can pitch then you can catch. i would like to think that we are people on the same side of the problem and just choose to have some different opinions. i also think that you get gigs because you are pretty and you would look fine in a nice evening gown. now that was a shot just because i can only be serious for a little while.
thanks,
dennis
thanks,
dennis
in general i enjoy debate... the more heated the better especially if the opposing viewpoint is based on something resembling logic. your point saying that women may not be assigned the role of great jazz pianist as young an age as men i will give you may be the first good point you have made. but this makes sence because there have just not been nearly as many great women jazz pianists in history... they have been the exception rather than the rule. also i would say it is not that important. i for one did not start studying piano until i was 17 years old and turned pro at 24 years old. so why should any woman need gender based role models at an early age?
you obviously are extremely gifted to have gotten that far after starting so late, but that is not unheard of as there are prodigies of all ages. most people at the age of seventeen aren't prepared to make the commitment that you made. people do not "need" gender based role models, they are quite generally forced into the by their environment. look at the dearth of female scientists, mathematicians, and so forth. i do not believe the lack of women in any fields connotes any genetic inferiority. i truly believe environmental factors are the greatest causation of this disparity. there is absolutely know way to scientifically determine the correct answer to my supposition, it is only my personal belief. one thing i did notice is that you did not deny looking fine in a nice evening gown. thanks for the discussion mike, i still know you are a great pianist and i hope that we can consider ourselves comrades if not friends.
actually i wish more woman were better pianists so i would not have had to have tolerated so many god awful women singers along my travels.
if they had just been more interested in playing piano maybe i would have been spared that torture!
if they had just been more interested in playing piano maybe i would have been spared that torture!
blimey, guys, i wish i hadn't mentioned the issue of woman pianists! i thought this thread was supposed to be about renee rosnes?! she's just one example of an excellent woman pianist who counteracts your prejudiced view, mike!
prejudiced: having or showing a dislike or distrust that is derived from prejudice;
that is obviously not what i have been conveying here. clearly some of my favorite pianist have been woman. nor have i said anything about renee rosnes positive or negative. mostly i have simply pointed out the mathamatical facts taht historicallly in a pure numerical sense there have been many more male great male pianists than women. and in fact that i stil the case today. it is just a fact. it has nothing at all to do with opinion, politics or 'prejudice". to call me prejudiced for stating simple mathematicsl facts is absurd.
that is obviously not what i have been conveying here. clearly some of my favorite pianist have been woman. nor have i said anything about renee rosnes positive or negative. mostly i have simply pointed out the mathamatical facts taht historicallly in a pure numerical sense there have been many more male great male pianists than women. and in fact that i stil the case today. it is just a fact. it has nothing at all to do with opinion, politics or 'prejudice". to call me prejudiced for stating simple mathematicsl facts is absurd.
too many words to read here... i'll just say that hiromi (a female) has the best technique of any jazz pianist on the scene today.
i am not even sure what that means when someone says a pianist has the best technique. but if i were to try to emulate the technique of any jazz pianist on the scene today i would certainly choose keith jarrett and/or chick corea to name just a couple before hiromi.
i, like mike, do not think i can state who has the best technique, so many bring so much and the difference in individuals usually allows me to like someone's playing in spite of any differences. i like what i like. the one thing i do know is that i love to watch hiromi play. she plays with a genuineness and joy that i find most refreshing. her exuberance is just amazing to me and i really enjoy seeing/listening to someone who so truly enjoys their art.
hiromi has monster chops - maybe better than anyone else. that, of course, is just one aspect of musicianship. i do think there are others now that are better in terms of artistry.
i didn't mean hiromi was deep in terms of artistry, just that she has the most polished piano technique.
seems we come back to this once in a while in the forum and i do not know that we will ever come to an agreement on it:
the definition of "technique"
"noun
a way of carrying out a particular task"..."the execution or performance of an artistic work or a scientific procedure."
"skill or ability in a particular field"
although to me it is certainly unquestionable that hiromi has obtained skill sets in her field that are envieable by all of her peers, these skill sets are narrow in comparison to other contemporaries who she is still drawing off of to achieve her growth as an artist. technique is only valid as a means to for achieving the "performance of an artistic work or a scientific procedure." and in this sence the fact that hiromi is artistically imature compared to the majority of her contempories does in fact downgrade how you should rate and measure her technique. otherwise if a machine was made that could play the piano faster and more effeciently than keith and chick you would say the machine had better technique and that would be a false statement... the truth would be that you had a machine that could play faster. that is a different thing than technique by definition... an entirely different conversation. perhaps you mean to say that you think hiromi can play "faster" than any other pianist out there?... i think i would debate that as well.
the definition of "technique"
"noun
a way of carrying out a particular task"..."the execution or performance of an artistic work or a scientific procedure."
"skill or ability in a particular field"
although to me it is certainly unquestionable that hiromi has obtained skill sets in her field that are envieable by all of her peers, these skill sets are narrow in comparison to other contemporaries who she is still drawing off of to achieve her growth as an artist. technique is only valid as a means to for achieving the "performance of an artistic work or a scientific procedure." and in this sence the fact that hiromi is artistically imature compared to the majority of her contempories does in fact downgrade how you should rate and measure her technique. otherwise if a machine was made that could play the piano faster and more effeciently than keith and chick you would say the machine had better technique and that would be a false statement... the truth would be that you had a machine that could play faster. that is a different thing than technique by definition... an entirely different conversation. perhaps you mean to say that you think hiromi can play "faster" than any other pianist out there?... i think i would debate that as well.
poor renee hardly got mentioned in this thread that bears her name.
mike, hiromi is a real virtuosa and can easily kick the butts of each and every person on this board.
mike, hiromi is a real virtuosa and can easily kick the butts of each and every person on this board.
damn straight cynbad. but i think mike would debate the sunrising in the morning. yes mike, i know the sun doesn't actually rise, that it is the rotation of the earth that makes it appear so. i do appreciate his standing up for what he believes and i definitely want mike in my corner when my chips are down.
if she "kicks the butt" of chick corea and keith jarrett then i need a new profession because i really do not think she is even in the same ball park.
further more i do not think termonology like "kicks the butt" really works very well when accessing the skills of pianists which tend to be intricate and intellectual in nature and would be better suited if we were comparing boxers ... perhaps laila ali to mike tyson. which by the way the ratio of great female boxers to great male boxers is somewhat similar to the ratio of great female jazz pianists to male...
and comparing hiromi's technique to jaretts is not unlike comparing laila ali's overall power and skill to mike tyson's.
and comparing hiromi's technique to jaretts is not unlike comparing laila ali's overall power and skill to mike tyson's.
also all you guys that have a thing for hiromi... i have it on word from someonw who knows her she does not hunt the internet looking for men who complement her playing and then contact them looking for dates. so just cut the shit ok.
also with her puffed up hair she and her exagerated use of flashy runs she reminds me of liberace... i would bill her as asia answer to liberace the asian queen jazz liberace. and i would really laugh like heck at all you guys especially if she decided to come out of the closet and admit she is a she-male.
mike, mike, mike. now you're just sounding jealous! time to shut up and play.
the hyperbole has officially gone off the scale. mike, i genuinely enjoy hiromi's playing much better than the grunts and groans of jarrett, who to me seems to think he is doing me a favor by playing. now if i thought my compliments would bring her to me begging for personal time, i know that one look at me would send her running and screaming the other way. just accept the fact that not everyone sees the world through your eyes and not everyone has the same appreciations as you. i really think this subject has been beaten into submission, especially when you realize what the initial posting was. i think renee rosnes was a capable and competent artist, fully deserving of some respect. may whatever forces exist in the universe welcome her to an afterlife, provided of course there is such a thing, which i seriously doubt. as always, just my opinion.
i still think renee is great.
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