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Adding chords to a 1625

hello all,
i have been using the rootless a and b form voicings in my left hand and doing some basic single note improvising in my right hand. i will play 1-6-2-5, 2-5-1-6, or some other combination of these chords and solo over it and i'm really enjoying this! i would really like to add some additional harmony to spice it up. any ideas?

by ryno200sx on 04/18/2010, 12:15

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the ideas are quite infinite. that is like saying. i walked outside my house, any ideas for where i could walk next?... the answer is anywhere.

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by Mike on 04/18/2010, 18:44

point taken but that's actually part of the problem. i'm just looking for a couple basic ideas to expand on what i've learned so far. the left hand voicings i'm using for the 1625 sound nice and i'm getting more comfortable soloing over it and i like it. just looking for some ideas on other nice left had chords to expand on the harmony i have.
thanks,
ryno

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by ryno200sx on 04/18/2010, 19:53

lowest range: bass line
ex: over 4 beat chords use 1 2 b3 3
over two beat chords use 1 b5

mid-low:
use 10th shell under ii chord, 7th shell under v chord, 3rd under tonic and/or combine with guide tone lines (3-7 / 7-3)

g major rhythm changes: gma7 - em7 - am7 - d7

gmaj7 = g f# b (10th)

em7 = e d g (10th)

am7 = a c g (7th)

d7 = c f# (guide tones)

highest-low range: evans rootless chords

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by 7 on 04/18/2010, 22:01

here's a couple of ideas:

1 turn some of the chords into dominants and experiment with different alterations

eg cmaj7 - a7b9#5 - dm7 - g7b9

or

c7 - a7b9 - d7#11 - dm7 g7sus

2 experiment with a dominant chord a semitone above the following chord

eg cmaj7 - bb7 - a7 - eb7 - dm7 - ab7#11 - g7

bill evans used to do this a lot i think

3 replace the i chord with the iii chord

eg em7 instead of cmaj7

or even play e7 instead of the cmaj7

remember to be tasteful though!

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by superjames on 04/19/2010, 06:32

to the above,add this-

https://www.google.com/search?q=substitute+chords+for+%22i+got+rhythm%22&rls=com.microsoft:en-us&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&startindex=&startpage=1

(there are a lot of sites online where this is dealt w/in detail..)

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by smg on 04/20/2010, 14:28

looks like some great ideas. thanks i will try them out.
ryno

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by ryno200sx on 04/20/2010, 14:54

i guess maybe we are talking about vamps we like to improvise over? i like to vamp on minor iii vi ii v's rather than i vi ii v's myself.
for example a-7b5 d7/g-7b5 c7 in the key of f. lately every ten minutes or so i like to throw in one sequence of the countdown changes
g-7 ab7/dbmaj7 e7/amaj7 c7/ fmaj7... except for if i am going to keep going i hit the a-7b5 chord instead of the fmaj7 chord at the end of the countdown sequence of cource and start the vamp all over again.

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by Mike on 04/20/2010, 20:45

but thats just me, i have been ocd on the countdown changes for about a year now. even if i am playing "mary had a little lamb: you hear me doing at least a countdown intro and ending.

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by Mike on 04/20/2010, 20:48

thanks mike that sounds like something i'd like to try out. that leads me to another question for you and the other folks who replied - how do you voice it? can these ideas be done nicely with the rootless bill evans chords or is there a better way?

the thing i like about the bill evans voicings is that i can stay in the same area with the left hand and i have it to the point where my hand knows it so well that i can really concentrate on my soloing with the right hand.

really appreciate all the replies people.

ryno

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by ryno200sx on 04/21/2010, 08:41

i think that's just a general question about how you voice chords - there's heaps of stuff on that at this site or check out mark levine's jazz piano book for starters

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by superjames on 04/27/2010, 05:34

i voice things differently all the time. to voice things the same every time would be the same thing as saying the same thing over and over again every time i talked to someone. of course i have stock things that i say like "hi how's it goin?" but other than that the conversational choices are infinite. same thing with chord voicings. it is a good idea to have some stock voicing systems in place but other than that i look at like this: every chord has 7 notes 1,3,5,7,9,11 and 13 except dimished chords which have 8 notes 1,b3,b5,bb7,7,9,11 and flat 13. on major chords 3 is major on minor chords 3 is flat and so on etc i have omited those details to allow the simple statement that all chords consist of 1,3,5 etc and they can be put in any order at all to figure out the number of variations is mathematic operation called a factorial this is done by computing
the factorial of 7 which is 1x2x3x4x5x6x7= 4200. so there are 4200 ways to voice any chord excpet there are more ways to voice dimished chords. this is something i learned while studying with roland wiggins a pianist and music theoritician who taught john coltrane and archie shepp muaic theory.

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by Mike on 04/27/2010, 13:24

so to complete the calculations there are 33,600 diferent ways to voice a diminished chord. better get to work boys. in the late 70's roland wiggins could actually be found at grand piano's with computer print outs all over it checking them off. i am sure today he would say, "yep i played all 33,600."

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by Mike on 04/27/2010, 16:56

so look i am not suggesting anyone take this approach. how mr wiggins remained a seemingly sane and brilliant man is beyond my understanding in fact. however to lock into just one set of the so called "bill evans rootless voicings" is just silly when there are so many other perfectly fine voicings to check out. how do you do it? i know what dave mckenna would say... "go home and try it."... just go to the piano and take those notes 1357911 and 13 and try arranging them one or two different ways.... it is more fun than a video game.

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by Mike on 04/27/2010, 17:02

hey mike,

could you elaborate on your diminished chord philosophy. i see them as a stack of minor thirds. so to me, they could only have four notes. are you suggesting for example:

c eb gb bbb d f ab? a cool sounding chord, but how would you label it?

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by Dr. Whack on 04/28/2010, 04:42

i see and hear it as two different diminished chords (c dim7 and d dim) it also sound pretty cool to add a b (cb) on top of the d dim creating two dim 7th chords:

c eb gb bbb d f ab cb - kinda bitonal:)

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by Dr. Whack on 04/28/2010, 04:48

dear doctor;
if you are having a hard time wraping your mind around that you might want to think of it like this. a major chord 1,3,5,7 has the tensions 9,11 and 13 available. a dimished chord 1,b3,b5,bb7 has the
tensions 7,9,11 and flat 13 available to it. that is one way to think of it. for general playing purposes the best way is the way you see it of course as two stacked diminshed chords. but i was discusing the chord in a theoretical discussion of numerical voicing possabilities and that case a different definitions was needed ... one in line with the way i was defining major and minor chords.

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by Mike on 04/28/2010, 08:46

in c major you can play a common major turnaround like:

||: im7  vi-7  | ii-7   v7/i :||

here are some possibilities:

||: iii-7  vi-7  | ii-7   v7/i :||

||: v7/vi  v7/ii  | ii-7   v7/i :||

||: im7  v7/ii  | v7/v   v7/i:||

||: im7  vi-7  | ii-7   subv7/i :||  (subv7/i = bii7)
(subv7 is the triton substitution of a common v7 chord

||: im7  biiim7  | bvim7   v7/i:|| or ||: im7  biiim7  | bvim7   subv7/i:||

||: im7  subv7/ii  | subv7/v   subv7/i:||

||: im7  bviim7  | bvim7   v7alt:||

||: ii-7  subv7/ii | bvim7   v7alt:|| or ||: ii-7  subv7/ii | bvim7   subv7/i:||

||: iii-7  biii-7  | ii-7   biim7| im7 ||

||: biii-7  bvi7  | ii-7   v7/i :||

etc...

so you can try more!

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by Nor251 on 04/28/2010, 14:42

thanks mike. i'm not having any trouble, it's just odd terminology to me, since there would be a perfect 4th between 7 & 9. these are the areas though, where music theory gets kinda silly. but still the question remains, how would you label this chord:

c eb gb bbb d f ab

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by Dr. Whack on 04/28/2010, 16:23

or you could call it an augmented 3rd between 7 & 9 instead of a p4...but that is especially silly - makes me wanna play elbow chords

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by Dr. Whack on 04/28/2010, 16:26

i would simply call that chord c diminshed 7.  we do not always address all the added tensions when we label a chord.  for example a chord that has the notes c e g b d f# a  can be called c maj 7 9#1113 or is just as likely to be written simply c maj 7.
    on most chord charts the first chord of the tune "all of me" is cmaj7.  when i read that chart i almost always add at least a 9th to that c maj 7 chord where as the pianist joe shmoe never plays anything but th notes c e g and b.  neither of us more correct thatn the other when we play the first chord of the song "all of me".
   likewise if you feel it is necessary to write in those notes in addition to c dim 7 you have to write co7 911b13.  for me however in the idiom it is assumed that we all know those notes are always available to add to any dimished chord just like 9 11 and 13 are available for magor and minor chords so there is no need to add that to the chord symbol.  in fact i find that sort of thing just makes charts sloppy.

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by Mike on 04/28/2010, 16:52

you should go into politics :)

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by Dr. Whack on 04/29/2010, 05:48

whack and mike,

mike's exactly right, it's just the full extensions of a diminished chord.

however, people i knew always called that voicing (c eb gb a b d f ab) the double diminished chord, because there are two fully diminished chords in it. i'm not sure if levine calls it that, but i feel like i've also read that somewhere else.

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by hepcatmonk on 04/29/2010, 07:29

thanks hcm...double diminished seems a logical label

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by Dr. Whack on 04/29/2010, 08:33

yes, levine calls it that.

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by 7 on 04/29/2010, 09:03

i guess i am not terribly interested in the correct or inocorrect names for things. i have never been interested in the topic of when musicaologists debate when the situation is correct to call a note b or c flat. that conversation just does not turn me on. what does interest me is the conversation about how many different ways there are to voice a chord. when i first studied jazz piano and i too was locked into the bill evans system like it seems ryno might be, then i am sitting there in a classroom and sitting next to archie shepp and roland wiggins writes on the chalk board ... different ways to voice a c major chord.... 4 thousand, 200... archie shepp and i both looked at each other... like wtf. it was very cool when he explained it all. opened up a new world for me. just like it was cool when dave frank explained "non-voicings" to me many years later.

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by Mike on 04/29/2010, 10:35

so when i said "i look at like this:  every chord has 7 notes 1,3,5,7,9,11 and 13 except dimished chords which have 8 notes 1,b3,b5,bb7,7,9,11 and flat 13."

i am not saying this is the correct way of labeling it nor am i saying it is the best way....
i am only saying it is what works for me.  it is what helps me see all the choices and variety that is available to me.  it helps make me aware all the time it is a big world of voicings out there.

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by Mike on 04/29/2010, 10:39

to enrich more your 36251 chord progression try laying a pedal point on g while you play the voicings. (any formula of voicings!) for example:

in c major, you play g on the bass while you play: 3 b7 #9/b7 3 13

v7/vi_______v7/ii_______v7/v_________v7/i________im7
type(a)---->type(b)---->type(a)---->type(b)---->resolution

when still holding your g bass pedal point, try also some levine's drop2 concept like voicing a v7 chord as v13(b9):

v7/vi : voiced as l.h = 3  r.h = b7 #9 5
v7/ii : move the above l.h & r.h formula chromatically down by 1/2
v7/v : idem
v7/i : idem
....resolution on im7

or

v7/vi : voiced as l.h = b9  r.h = 5 r 3
v7/ii : move the above l.h & r.h formula chromatically down by 1/2
v7/v : idem
v7/i : idem
....resolution on im7

or

v7/vi : voiced as l.h = 5  r.h = b9 #4 b7
v7/ii : move the above l.h & r.h formula chromatically down by 1/2
v7/v : idem
v7/i : idem
....resolution on im7

or

v7/vi : voiced as l.h = b7  r.h = 3 13 b9
v7/ii : move the above l.h & r.h formula chromatically down by 1/2
v7/v : idem
v7/i : idem
....resolution on im7

if you keep a smooth voice-leading you can take any voicing and apply it smoothly throughout the 36251 chord progression.

i still did not added any new chord to the 36251 but just tried to show you how you can make it sound better.

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by Nor251 on 04/29/2010, 14:07

dr.whack!

i see your voicing as: l.h = c eb gb bbb / r.h = d f ab so i think visually it looks like a rootless voicing of a d7(b9,#9,#11) as you have:

b7 b9 3 5 / r #9 #11

it may also sounds over:

b7(b9,#9,,#11,13)
ab7(b9,#11,13) &
f7(b9,13,#9)

..hum possibly! no???! and it would call -maybe- for the diminished scale.

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by Nor251 on 04/29/2010, 14:27

ryno;

have you tried this old link? https://www.jazzcenter.org/

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by Nor251 on 04/29/2010, 14:41

well said mike. i hope you didn't think i was picking on you. i, like you, find the theory a bit silly once we begin to split hairs on how to analyze things. i was asking how you label it in case i would use it when i teach. in all my years i had never used the term "tensions" to describe 9, 11, 13ths. we used the term "extension", meaning that the logical extension to a 7th chord would be 9th, etc. to me, the way we were taught and the way we used them in traditional theory classes, the diminished 7 could not have a 9, 11 or 13 for obvious reasons

personally i like to play undefinable clusters. the less i think about what i play, the better i play and the more creative i get. (unless i'm playing mainstream gigs or the stuff i played on my solo cd. in those cases i sound like everyone else:)

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by Dr. Whack on 04/30/2010, 06:05

cool, i guess "tension" is really just an abbreviation for "extension". there being a theory for this as well. the theory being most jazz muscians are verbally challenged. therefore the 3 sylable word "extension is not really a good word to expect they will be able to make good use of. just too many sylables to handle. so it is broken down and made simpler ... the two sylable word "tension" although it creates confusion with meaning at least most muscians can verbalize it and say it with out much trouble.

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by Mike on 04/30/2010, 14:49

"most jazz muscians are verbally challenged"

i think this is true

but why is this?

is it too many hours alone in the practice room?

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by superjames on 04/30/2010, 20:49

actually the term "tension" in the berklee usage dates back to the schillinger system.

i read a treatise on the schillinger system, where it explains the usage of the word "tension" and the varying degrees of tension exhibited by the upper extensions. there is a certain logic to it, but i remain unconvinced as to its necessity or validity.

in that treatise it states that there are some tensions that are "more tense" than others blah, blah blah, but in the end it's really (imho) just a berklee-ism that is a hold-over from the original school's schillinger terminology.

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by 7 on 05/01/2010, 00:34

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Adding chords to a 1625

There are 33 comments, leave a comment.

by Mike on 04/18/2010, 18:44

by ryno200sx on 04/18/2010, 19:53

by 7 on 04/18/2010, 22:01

by superjames on 04/19/2010, 06:32

by smg on 04/20/2010, 14:28

by ryno200sx on 04/20/2010, 14:54

by Mike on 04/20/2010, 20:45

by Mike on 04/20/2010, 20:48

by ryno200sx on 04/21/2010, 08:41

by superjames on 04/27/2010, 05:34

by Mike on 04/27/2010, 13:24

by Mike on 04/27/2010, 16:56

by Mike on 04/27/2010, 17:02

by Dr. Whack on 04/28/2010, 04:42

by Dr. Whack on 04/28/2010, 04:48

by Mike on 04/28/2010, 08:46

by Nor251 on 04/28/2010, 14:42

by Dr. Whack on 04/28/2010, 16:23

by Dr. Whack on 04/28/2010, 16:26

by Mike on 04/28/2010, 16:52

by Dr. Whack on 04/29/2010, 05:48

by hepcatmonk on 04/29/2010, 07:29

by Dr. Whack on 04/29/2010, 08:33

by 7 on 04/29/2010, 09:03

by Mike on 04/29/2010, 10:35

by Mike on 04/29/2010, 10:39

by Nor251 on 04/29/2010, 14:07

by Nor251 on 04/29/2010, 14:27

by Nor251 on 04/29/2010, 14:41

by Dr. Whack on 04/30/2010, 06:05

by Mike on 04/30/2010, 14:49

by superjames on 04/30/2010, 20:49

by 7 on 05/01/2010, 00:34

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