Scot Ranney's LearnJazzPiano.com archive: GIANT STEPS.

LearnJazzPiano.com archives: GIANT STEPS.
BlackWhiteKey -- 10/05/2006, 18:51:29 -- #30294
my piano teacher gave me this piece, and i have no ideas for improvisation here. help, please?
Mike -- 10/05/2006, 20:16:55 -- #30294
Two five one. then it changes keys to another ... Two five one. learn to improvise over it very slow... then get it up to tempo a little at a time. Volumes have been written about improvising on Giant STeps but that is what it really boils down to.
Jazz+ -- 10/05/2006, 20:49:14 -- #30294
Coltrane mostly did scale runs, arpeggios of the chords and that ascending 4 note pattern he liked, ie, in B he would play B C# D# F# or descending F# D# C# B
jwv76 -- 10/05/2006, 21:57:26 -- #30294
I've never understood what the big deal is about Giant Steps. You only need to know three major scales to come up with ideas. B major, G major, and Eb major. Practice playing bars 10 through 15, like Mike said, ii-V7-I in G, modulate up a major third, then up another major third, and then up another major third and your back in G. Once you can do that you know all the scales you need to play the first eight bars, you just need to learn to navigate when and where to use them.
albetan -- 10/06/2006, 07:41:45 -- #30294
Please go to Search LJP :giant steps : files
Scot -- 10/06/2006, 13:59:45 -- #30294
I love this song. There are some easy ways to look at it. One way to look at the first section is to reharmonize. Start on BMaj7, then go down whole steps, alternating major 7 and minor 7 until you get to EbMaj7. BMaj7 - Amin7 - GMaj7 - Fmin7 - EbMaj7 Then use the half step below (D7) as the 5 to get to the next line: GMaj7 - Fmin7 - EbMaj7 - Dbmin7 - BMaj7 Then in the next section it's even more fun. Slide down a half step to the Bb7 chord to easily move into the EbMaj7 chord of the second part of the song. Then, for each of those, instead of trying to grab the 2-5 chords (such as Am to D7 to GM7) just slide down a half step. So, the second half would go like: EbMaj7 \| D7 \| GMaj7 \| F#7 \| BMaj7 \| Bb7 \| EbMaj7 \| \| It's one of many ways to help simplify Giant Steps and start looking at it differently, which can help you start jamming on it.
thejaffer -- 10/06/2006, 15:49:45 -- #30294
^^^^ this is good advice, and applies to most bebop tunes. At quick tempos treat your improvising line over: II V7 \| I as though it's over V7 \| I you will almost certainly play better lines. the II-7 is usually insignificant. For more advanced players you can try this for a hip sound: as scott suggested above treat the second half as: Bb7 EbMaj7 \| D7 \| GMaj7 \| F#7 \| BMaj7 \| Bb7 \| EbMaj7 \| Then play every major chord Imaj7 as Imaj7#5#11 ie. use Lydian #5 and every dominant chord V7 as V-7b9 ie. use dorian b9 Both of these substitutions sound perfectly fine on their own and can be used seperately in other contexts but if you use them both around this sequence something interesting happens. Eb Lydian #5 and D dorian b9 are both from the same scale (C melodic minor) Similarly with G lyd#5 and F# dorianb9 (Emel. min) and B lyd#5 and Bb7 dorian b9 (Ab mel. min). This is a hard tune because it's difficult to play a convincing fluid line while jumping over such different harmonic areas. Therefore instead of thinking Bmajor, Gmajor and Ebmajor scales which only work within those key centres, you can use these three scales which cross over the divide, yet still resolving the lines at the same points and maintaining the structure...
Mike -- 10/06/2006, 20:15:36 -- #30294
JW76 the big deal is really exactly what you said. It is the modulations in 3rds. Try to find other tunes that have modulations in thirds composed before that tune. They do not really exist except maybe "Have you met Miss Jones". The big to do about has resurfaced lately amongst the top Ny players. It is players playing around with what is being called the "Four Tonic Systems" and the "Three Tonic Systems". I can't address it completely right now it would take more time than I have. But basically its foundation comes from The Thesauraus of Scales. And the equal division of the octave. If you split the Octave in equaly in two parts this gives you a tritone. This is called a "Two Tonic System" This system we are all familiar with by another name ... the "tri- tone substition". We all agreed at some point that we can substitute F# 7 for C 7 at any time. The theoretical explanation for why this works can be found in the equal division of the octave or the "Two tonic system". Many of us are also familiar with the "Four tonic system" by another name.. This name is Dimishied harmony. Divide the octave into 4 Equal parts and we get a Dimished 7 chords. Here we also start to find Eb7, F#7 and A7 can be substituted for C7 by the same theoretical argument as with the "Two Tonic System. Giant Steps divides the Octave into 3 Parts. So in one sence you see those modulations are not changing keys at all... but they are because Coltrane creatively preceded all the dominants with their ii chords and followed them all with their I chords. You compose the same type of tunes with the 4 tonic sytem. Actually "Central Park West" by Coltrane is the same chord progression as Giant Steps only with the Four Tonic System instead of the Three tonic System that Giant Steps uses. Questions?
thejaffer -- 10/07/2006, 09:25:39 -- #30294
"We all agreed at some point that we can substitute F# 7 for C 7 at any time" I think this is balls and doesn't sound good. If you (the piano player/soloist) play C7alt then the bass player can independently choose between playing C leading to C7alt or F# which makes it F#7#11. this is because C7alt and F#7#11 both share the same scale namely Db melodic minor. This decision can be spontaneous because whichever choice is made, it will not disturb the soloist. Whereas if half the band play C7 and half the band play F#7 it sounds terrible. Check my room "thejaffer" and check out the real explanation for the tritone sub.
Mike -- 10/07/2006, 10:36:40 -- #30294
Well I was trying to put out a books worth of info in two paragraphs so i took the liberty of saying "any" time when may be it should have been qualified. And of course the theoretical justification for the Tritone sub can go beyond Slonminskys Thesauraus of Scales. Sometimes we can only include so much info when trying to teach an idea here. Dont shoot me Im just a piano player.
thejaffer -- 10/07/2006, 14:55:46 -- #30294
:) sorry just read it back and sorry if i came across as rude. This is though, i think, one of the most common misunderstandings with beginner jazz pianists. I would go as far to say that you should hardly ever substitute C7 for F#7 (in a ii-V7-I type of context) Remember that 'substitution' is a real time unprepared/spontaneous thing, as opposed to 'reharmonisation' which is prior arranging (in which case you can do what you like...)
Scot -- 10/07/2006, 19:14:49 -- #30294
I like my bass players to play the written chords, then >I< can substitute my C7 for an F#7 and vice versa and it sounds like I'm going outside or adding some altered tones to what I'm playing. Most of the time I don't want the bass player following me or even getting to far out of "standard" changes for whatever we're playing.
Mike -- 10/07/2006, 23:44:21 -- #30294
I sub F#7 for C7 constantly, subconciously I would say. Bass players that I play with often enough know when I am going to do it without thinking about it too, and vice a versa... It makes a difference if it is someone you play with regularly or not. If my bass player right now starts playing a C diminished chord arpegio in half notes where there is a C7 chord for two measures i can hear that. I know he is saying "4 tonic system" He knows I am way into that right now. I have been teaching him about it. So I play along as I hear him proding me ... C7 Eb 7, F#7, A7. makes a blues so hip for a moment and the sax player looks at us both cause we have both just improvised something complex and tight and hip. and says sort of in awe, loud enough for it to come over the mic... "what the f%#@?"
Mike -- 10/07/2006, 23:46:02 -- #30294
to me this is modern jazz.
thejaffer -- 10/08/2006, 03:49:32 -- #30294
"Most of the time I don't want the bass player following me.." "It makes a difference if it is someone you play with regularly or not" Well that's the problem with this F#7 / C7 sustitution... what i'm suggesting is a way of playing which gives each player independent options about what to play, which still fit in tastefully with what everyone else is playing (no 'what the f%#@' from sax players or singers) and yet don't need to be discussed beforehand. Playing C7 Eb7 F#7 and A7 apeggios over a C7 chord symbol works because they all share the same diminished scale and so the players can pay the same general harmony but from different viewpoints and sounds good.. My point is that it is C7alt and F#7#11 that share the same scale (Db mel minor) and so the players can work from different viewpoints here this way. if the sax player plays a C7 mixolydian lick and the bass player starts playing F#7 mixolydian it clashes badly. If you want to deliberately clash then fine... but going 'outside' is a different thing entirely.
Mike -- 10/08/2006, 06:24:19 -- #30294
I guess I was not clear ... the sax player was saying 'what the f%#@' in admiration and in awe. The idea of everybody knowing about the language is so that we can improvise together. This is Jazz. When we pull it off together on stage this is exciting for us and for an audience. When it does not quite work and there are mistakes this is also Jazz. This is why Mingus called his bands "Jazz Workshop" and told his audiences... one way of looking at it is ... We do not get paid enough to rehearse so you are paying to hear a rehearsal.... Another way of looking at it is... This is Jazz.... Either way If you do not like it... You can still get your money back now until we start playing in just a moment.
Dante -- 10/08/2006, 09:36:04 -- #30294
lol I like the thinking. "If you don't like it, well f_ck off". I'll try that on my next gig.
Scot -- 10/08/2006, 10:30:12 -- #30294
"Most of the time I don't want the bass player following me.." I should mention that the statement above should be taken in harmonic context and it's only true when playing changes. Rhythmically and when we escape from the page for a while, I want the bass right there in my pocket.
Mike -- 10/08/2006, 11:37:03 -- #30294
Well I would caution that Mingus was rather large, could be quite intimidating. And was also very Charismatic.
Mike -- 10/09/2006, 02:53:09 -- #30294
Mingus also would have said he wasnt going to be in no ones pocket. You would be listening to him for the changes.
thejaffer -- 10/09/2006, 05:02:06 -- #30294
You can surely create tension both ways though. Going in different directions harmonically or rhythmically. Or both. Especially good is the rhythmic interplay between piano and drums. Superimposing rhythms / Polyrhythms and such like. Then with the harmonic/melodic interplay between bass and the soloist.. Anyway back to Giant Steps... try making a good solo just using the six notes: B D D#/Eb F#/Gb G A#/Bb A useful exersise i think. better than endless pentatonics at least in the early stages.. This tune works suprisingly well in 7/4 too.. If you're brave..
Mike -- 10/09/2006, 15:40:27 -- #30294
Yes thejaffer is reccomending the scale of the 3 tonic system. It is the scale on page 27 of "The Thesaurus of Scales and Melodic Patterns" It is the equivalent to the 3 tonic system of what the diminished scale is to the 4 tonic system. Instead of being [whole half whole half] or [half whole half whole] like the diminished scale. This scale (used for what is called the "Ditone progeression) has a formula of [minor third half step minor third half step ] or [half step minor third half step minor third] So in the case of Giant Steps useing that formula the Two Ditone scales avalable would consist of the notes: B C Eb E G Ab B B D Eb Gb G Bb B But you see Giant Steps it so happens gets all us pros all riled up. We all flex our muscles and pull out our big guns on this one. Genereally we are mild mannered gentlemen. But mention Giant STeps and suddenly we are like Al Pacino in Scarface... We pull out our biggest automatic machine gun and say "say hello to my friend Lydian inverted minor backwards upside down 260 64th noted block chords played with my nose." I stick by my original advice ignore all this other stuff especially what I just posted just practice improvising slowly... first over each individual two five one in the tune ... then put all the two five ones together and improvise over them.. then very gradually try to increase your temps.
thejaffer -- 10/09/2006, 16:46:44 -- #30294
:) I've never seen that thesaurus, maybe i should check it out... (What i explained above about melodic minors IS simple to do once you've worked it out, as easy as using majors, but not so easy to explain.)
Styles -- 10/13/2006, 05:18:29 -- #30294
Thanks for the reharm tip Scot, I never thought of it that way!
ziggysane -- 10/14/2006, 22:23:18 -- #30294
I believe Mingus was also thrown out of his brief tenure with the Ellington band for pulling a knife to settle a dispute.
Copyright � 2005 by Scot Ranney. All rights reserved.
Click Here for more information about performances and clinics. Click Here to sign up for Scot's music announcements.