using minor thirds intervals in improvised RH lines....
the above is something i figured i'd post re-players who are dealing with their soloing and looking for a way to "modernize" their "mainstream/be-bop concept".this is just a simple concept that using will open the door to a lot of contemporary sounds without changing the type of melodic patterns you use.
take any of the standard "8th note" ii-v lines and,when the rhythmic shape of the pattern (as well as the relationship between the v chord and the notes being used)allows,substitute (or "insert")a minor third beginning on the chromatic neighbor of the note in the line you choose.this will get you immediately into the area of "available tensions" on the dom 7 which you can remain in ,using chromatic patterns based around these,for as long as you want before "returning the same way you left" to a diatonic melodic approach to the progression.
take any of the standard "8th note" ii-v lines and,when the rhythmic shape of the pattern (as well as the relationship between the v chord and the notes being used)allows,substitute (or "insert")a minor third beginning on the chromatic neighbor of the note in the line you choose.this will get you immediately into the area of "available tensions" on the dom 7 which you can remain in ,using chromatic patterns based around these,for as long as you want before "returning the same way you left" to a diatonic melodic approach to the progression.
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please give an example:
are you just talking about substituting two notes (a minor third) or something more.
an example, even written out letter by letter, would help.
are you just talking about substituting two notes (a minor third) or something more.
an example, even written out letter by letter, would help.
first off,when i originally posted this thread i titled it "using thirds intervals......",then while typing it i noticed i was thinking in terms of minor thirds so i changed it;later i thought about it some more and realized that thirds of either quality could work.....
the kind of diatonic patterns i'm referring to are easily
conceptualized in numerical terms.taking the standard 2 bar ii-v ,many of them outline the min7 in the first bar and use similar patterns over the v in the second,in fact becoming familiar with the "vocabulary" of patterns like this allows you to use them as both eighths or 16ths.if they do use "tensions" on the v,usually these are structurally placed as leading tones resolving to a diatonic pitch/chord tone.stringing together these kind of patterns is very often the basis for many "inside" players' approach.
here are some,followed by this "insertion of thirds" concept..btw the harmonic/theoretical basis for this type of thing is covered in detail in the file at 360 degrees called,"chords built on dom7 tensions"-
these are eighth notes,the numbers refer to degrees constructed on the ii and v respectively,the "melodic direction" will be obvious given the (over)use of these kinds of patterns(i took 2 of the most common for ease of explanation)
3 4 5 7 9 1 7 5/1 9 3 5 4 5 6 7=3 4 5 7 6 b5 11 maj3/7 6 5 4 b13 5 b5 b13
54319317/97567165=5431 maj7 9 b9 maj7/5 #9 9 4 3 #13 b5 3
the kind of diatonic patterns i'm referring to are easily
conceptualized in numerical terms.taking the standard 2 bar ii-v ,many of them outline the min7 in the first bar and use similar patterns over the v in the second,in fact becoming familiar with the "vocabulary" of patterns like this allows you to use them as both eighths or 16ths.if they do use "tensions" on the v,usually these are structurally placed as leading tones resolving to a diatonic pitch/chord tone.stringing together these kind of patterns is very often the basis for many "inside" players' approach.
here are some,followed by this "insertion of thirds" concept..btw the harmonic/theoretical basis for this type of thing is covered in detail in the file at 360 degrees called,"chords built on dom7 tensions"-
these are eighth notes,the numbers refer to degrees constructed on the ii and v respectively,the "melodic direction" will be obvious given the (over)use of these kinds of patterns(i took 2 of the most common for ease of explanation)
3 4 5 7 9 1 7 5/1 9 3 5 4 5 6 7=3 4 5 7 6 b5 11 maj3/7 6 5 4 b13 5 b5 b13
54319317/97567165=5431 maj7 9 b9 maj7/5 #9 9 4 3 #13 b5 3
so these are notes, not chords, right? is so, what is the / for? it looks like on the first line you start by substituting a
6 b5 11 maj3/7 6 for the 9 1 7 5/1 9. where does the third come in?
i really would like to understand what you are trying to say. it seems that maybe you are talking about.
wait, i think the / is separating the two bars of ii and v? i still don't understand the notation: and the numbers the scale notes for the root, or the scale notes for the ii and v chords?
6 b5 11 maj3/7 6 for the 9 1 7 5/1 9. where does the third come in?
i really would like to understand what you are trying to say. it seems that maybe you are talking about.
wait, i think the / is separating the two bars of ii and v? i still don't understand the notation: and the numbers the scale notes for the root, or the scale notes for the ii and v chords?
1.the / is separating the two bars of ii and v
2.the numbers are the scale notes for the ii and v chords (degrees constructed on the ii and v respectively)
i.e.,using fm-bb7-
3 4 5 7 9 1 7 5/1 9 3 5 4 5 6 7=3 4 5 7 6 b5 11 maj3/7 6 5 4 b13 5 b5 b13=ab bb c eb g f eb c/bb c d f eb f g ab,then ab bb c eb d b bb a/ab
g f eb f# f e f#
the main thing here is that the use of the thirds in the line "sets up" the harmonic area on the dom 7 contrasting with the diatonic approach in a stronger way than just moving into it chromatically i think....
2.the numbers are the scale notes for the ii and v chords (degrees constructed on the ii and v respectively)
i.e.,using fm-bb7-
3 4 5 7 9 1 7 5/1 9 3 5 4 5 6 7=3 4 5 7 6 b5 11 maj3/7 6 5 4 b13 5 b5 b13=ab bb c eb g f eb c/bb c d f eb f g ab,then ab bb c eb d b bb a/ab
g f eb f# f e f#
the main thing here is that the use of the thirds in the line "sets up" the harmonic area on the dom 7 contrasting with the diatonic approach in a stronger way than just moving into it chromatically i think....
just try playing that line,starting on the ab...follow all the previous info..you'll see right away its' a simple concept;probably directly related to any "be-bop lines" studies you've posted,jb....no doubt the way it's formatted makes it look like something unusual,potentially hard-to-understand.....it being the summer,and a humid day,i'm just going to leave this as is for now....maybe in the future i'll upload something over at 360 .....if i had access to a finale-type program and a scanner,etc,i could easily show you what it's about.....all i can do is ask anyone interested to re-read all the posts and then use the last one(above 7s') as a guide.
maybe this will help-in the measure on the ii chord,you'll notice that the first four notes are the same in both examples(this all refers to the post directly after marksdg's second one)-ab bb c eb,first the pattern continues g f eb c using a diatonic approach;then in the second example,using the concept i'm talking about,instead of the eb going to the g it goes to d,followed by a min 3rd down to b....i.e.d b bb a,then there's the slash mark and the pattern continues on the v chord.
any luck figuring this out?
let me try to re-write your post in my own words and you can tell me whether i got it or not.
"when soloing over a 4 beat ii minor chord followed by a v7, on beat 3 you may use the lower chromatic neighbor of the note you played on the "and of the two", followed by a descending minor third to inject tension.
your soloing choices over the fourth beat are according to taste."
did i get it?
after playing around with some other possibilities it seemed as if the descending minor third built off the chromatic lower neighbor had a tendency to imply (to my ear) a full dim7 arpeggio over beats 3 and 4, as in the following examples over fm7:
f g ab bb, a f# eb c
g ab bb c, b ab f d
ab bb c d, c# bb g e
bb c d eb, d b ab f
c d eb f, e c# bb g
d eb f g, f# eb c a
eb f g ab, g e c# bb
* * * * * * *
7
"when soloing over a 4 beat ii minor chord followed by a v7, on beat 3 you may use the lower chromatic neighbor of the note you played on the "and of the two", followed by a descending minor third to inject tension.
your soloing choices over the fourth beat are according to taste."
did i get it?
after playing around with some other possibilities it seemed as if the descending minor third built off the chromatic lower neighbor had a tendency to imply (to my ear) a full dim7 arpeggio over beats 3 and 4, as in the following examples over fm7:
f g ab bb, a f# eb c
g ab bb c, b ab f d
ab bb c d, c# bb g e
bb c d eb, d b ab f
c d eb f, e c# bb g
d eb f g, f# eb c a
eb f g ab, g e c# bb
* * * * * * *
7
yeah thats' a good way of re-phrasing the way i described using the concept and correct in terms of the examples i gave;most of the ideas i think of using this do fit into that system...however it's not limited to this specific rhythmic interpretation......re-dim arpeggios,that's also a legitimate option if you hear it....i wonder if marksdg or any other interested parties have had any luck working with it...the above should help clarify the principles at work....
there are players who see any 2 bar ii-v as a chance to play lines composed entirely of patterns on the dom 7 using tensions;others who play diatonic ideas over both;this concept is a way of moving between the two.
there are players who see any 2 bar ii-v as a chance to play lines composed entirely of patterns on the dom 7 using tensions;others who play diatonic ideas over both;this concept is a way of moving between the two.
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