talented players and timing--->feeling depressed
hello!
i noticed that there are young player that just seems to have great timing without much practise. i have spent the latest years focusing on timing and now i start to find the right pocket in some music. is there people that just "has it" ? that have a very precice technique and can learn everything faster? is it normal to feel that i don´t gain anything from my pracise? i also get depressed by listening to my playing. i allways feel "this sounds like shit" when playing. it is the same feeling when playing with people that havent played that much. this feeling is allways with me when playing. sometimes i get out from this world and actually play something "good" i feel like i´m in an other world. this can be a nice lick or just a chord in the very right pocket...i think that it is good if i can reach this state one time per band session... to reach this is why i play... because it feels so good...shit.. i feel so untalented...
i noticed that there are young player that just seems to have great timing without much practise. i have spent the latest years focusing on timing and now i start to find the right pocket in some music. is there people that just "has it" ? that have a very precice technique and can learn everything faster? is it normal to feel that i don´t gain anything from my pracise? i also get depressed by listening to my playing. i allways feel "this sounds like shit" when playing. it is the same feeling when playing with people that havent played that much. this feeling is allways with me when playing. sometimes i get out from this world and actually play something "good" i feel like i´m in an other world. this can be a nice lick or just a chord in the very right pocket...i think that it is good if i can reach this state one time per band session... to reach this is why i play... because it feels so good...shit.. i feel so untalented...
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boy, i wish you youngsters would use capital letters and such. it makes things much easier to read:)
some people do some things better than others. i have students who just gett it, and others who struggle. some of my students have naturally better time than me, so time is one of the things i work on most.
like you, i can't stand to listen to my playing, but i'm never gonna get better if i don't listen or if i give up. i had a teacher once tell me i played great after a recital on which i felt i really sucked. she said, if i had felt i played great she would be concerned. the fact that i wasn't pleased is what causes me to play better next time (hopefully).
most of the great players i've met in my day, are never satisfied with their playing - you're in good company!
some people do some things better than others. i have students who just gett it, and others who struggle. some of my students have naturally better time than me, so time is one of the things i work on most.
like you, i can't stand to listen to my playing, but i'm never gonna get better if i don't listen or if i give up. i had a teacher once tell me i played great after a recital on which i felt i really sucked. she said, if i had felt i played great she would be concerned. the fact that i wasn't pleased is what causes me to play better next time (hopefully).
most of the great players i've met in my day, are never satisfied with their playing - you're in good company!
all right...i missed a capital "i" - and two "t"s on "get"...i apologize:)
never say "i feel untalented." music isn't about talent, it's about working hard at your goals and attaining them through intelligent practice, study, and listening.
all you have to do is read some bill evans biographies to find out that he considered himself extremely untalented, but at the same time, he really dug into the music and found out that through hard work and study, he was able to become the great pianist that he was.
all you have to do is read some bill evans biographies to find out that he considered himself extremely untalented, but at the same time, he really dug into the music and found out that through hard work and study, he was able to become the great pianist that he was.
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by Scot Ranney on 04/15/2005, 13:09
there are methods for improving your time and for developing consistency so that you always play in the zone. you can tell the musicians that always play in the zone. one way of knowing is listening when they are just doodling before a performance. the great ones, the ones that are consistent and are always in the zone sound just as great when they are doodling as when they are performing. there are lots and lots of examples of this with coltrane for example. for various reasons there are lots of recordings where you can hear him warming up before a session or a performance... but he is always in that same rhytmic zone.
the way i have been taught it is to practice eigth notes in a certain way. groups of four in particular. alot of master teachers i know of teach this method but when i have brought it up in this forum before, forum greats like doug mckenzie have critiqued me saying they have never heard of such a thing. so i dont teach the method here. i suggest finding someone whose time you respect and trying to get them to teach you on some level (if they are a teacher) if they are not a teacher they will probally not know how to teach it.
i am of the opinion that no one is born with a great sence of time and we all have to work on it and find our own way of dealing with it. but it is the key to consistent good playing.
the way i have been taught it is to practice eigth notes in a certain way. groups of four in particular. alot of master teachers i know of teach this method but when i have brought it up in this forum before, forum greats like doug mckenzie have critiqued me saying they have never heard of such a thing. so i dont teach the method here. i suggest finding someone whose time you respect and trying to get them to teach you on some level (if they are a teacher) if they are not a teacher they will probally not know how to teach it.
i am of the opinion that no one is born with a great sence of time and we all have to work on it and find our own way of dealing with it. but it is the key to consistent good playing.
what's really helped me is when years ago i bought myself some bongos. i knew i'd like them but i didn't realize how addicting they were; how infinite they can be, so many different sounds & rhythms. later i got some congas. anyway it was just amazing what the bongos can do for improving your rhythm. i like tuning them really low. just close your eyes, imagine the jungle, ok, the hunt was successful! and best of all, no worry about hitting wrong notes! i highly recommend getting into little percussion instruments. about feeling "untalented" or no-good about your playing i've had similar experiences. i often feel while playing live, "ah darn, i could've done that better, argh etc" but afterwards i half-expect someone that's coming up to me to say " and you call yourself a pianist?" but instead they tell me, " i really enjoyed your playing very much!" we're our own worse critics. also i recommend setting up a mirror next to the piano, you may be very pleased with the general appearance & atmosphere, the overall impression of yourself. i often find rubato to be highly effective in solos, you know, how most good singers do, do you think they're counting time! hades no! they're most likely in the alpha state, as 7 says. i was once in the alpha state for an entire set, & this was with a progessive country band. what i was playing complimented & fit in with the band so nicely, but could also stand by itself as a work of art. when the set was through, i was astonished to see many heads tracking me (not the singer, not the guitarist) with dropped jaws as i walked to the bar! now that is something to think deeply about. too bad it doesn't happen more often! also i think it helps to have a certain mind-set & attitude toward playing, "getting yourself ready" mentally. also try thinking the current song is the only song in the universe, a shining jewel, make it shine it's own individual beauty. don't forget imagery, it can be a great tool also.
"i noticed that there are young player that just seems to have great timing without much practise."
unless you're in bed with these players, how can you possibly know how much they practice? they may be playing *more* or practicing *better* than you, and this may well account for their good rhythm.
"is it normal to feel that i don´t gain anything from my pracise?"
no, i don't think so, although i don't disallow that playing the wrong things can lead to very slow progress, approximating or equalling the effect of not progressing at all.
ianamt, so listen to the other music teachers on the thread, cum grano salis.
unless you're in bed with these players, how can you possibly know how much they practice? they may be playing *more* or practicing *better* than you, and this may well account for their good rhythm.
"is it normal to feel that i don´t gain anything from my pracise?"
no, i don't think so, although i don't disallow that playing the wrong things can lead to very slow progress, approximating or equalling the effect of not progressing at all.
ianamt, so listen to the other music teachers on the thread, cum grano salis.
i have always been able to tell when i am making progress. the main time i can tell i have progressed is when i play a tune i haven't played for a while and fine i am playing it better than the last time i tried.
you can't always tell you are getting better each month, but in the last year and a 1/2 (that's how long i have been playing jazz) i can tell i have progressed every month or two.
perhaps your expectations are just unrealistic. how loing have you been playing?
you can't always tell you are getting better each month, but in the last year and a 1/2 (that's how long i have been playing jazz) i can tell i have progressed every month or two.
perhaps your expectations are just unrealistic. how loing have you been playing?
lol... what was this this a birthday celebration of this thread or something? good idea...
ianamt = i ain't none a music teacher.
yangte (you aint no grammar teacher either:)
ttt
get yourself a metronome... and be ready for a rude awakening. after that try to become friends with your metronome. start off slow... if the tune should be around 120 i practice it at 60 then work my way up to 120. then i start to click a little higher and push myself. its all about feel. a good trick is to put the click at half the speed you want to practice and count the 1st and 3rd beat.
and then count 2 and 4...
here is part of an interview with jeff berlin a famous jazz bass player who is against practicing with a metronome:
mike: you're a powerful advocate of practicing without a metronome. can you talk of your philosophy of acquiring good time and how a metronome hinders you?
jeff: practicing with a metronome defeats the whole purpose of practicing because practicing is a fact finding event, not a performance event. when you play, you are supposed to play in time. when you practice, you are supposed to be learning new material or re-establishing contact with older studies. reading new music should never, ever be done with a metronome because the click becomes the priority, not the music. good time comes from the experience of playing your instrument on a regular basis and having a familiarity with your style. every great musician knows this. if you ever listen to the smoking big bands from the 1930's and 1940' s, ask yourself how 15 guys played as one without ever dragging the time, always sitting dead on the quarter note and swinging the music like it was a living entity. those bands played some of the hottest music in history and you can't tell me that a metronome ever gave those musicians the sense of time that they put out in those bands. their sense of time came from inside, and most players today don't know this or even how to find that internal place to draw from.
gary burton used a metronome as a teenager because he felt that his solos rushed too much. but, he was already a master player who wanted to deal with a specific element of his developing skills. today, guys emphasize metronomes as the way to get good time. bad mistake! the more you play, the better your time will become. automatically!
james jamerson, jerry jemmott, rocco prestia, jaco pastorius, larry graham, stanley clarke. they never used a metronome to give them what they all had, which is killer time. how do the advocates of metronomes explain that some of the greatest bass, drum, guitar, keyboard, string and horn players in music history didn't use metronomes and still have perfect time? as i said earlier, some musicians don't like to think because this question should shake up every musician who reads it.
mike: you're a powerful advocate of practicing without a metronome. can you talk of your philosophy of acquiring good time and how a metronome hinders you?
jeff: practicing with a metronome defeats the whole purpose of practicing because practicing is a fact finding event, not a performance event. when you play, you are supposed to play in time. when you practice, you are supposed to be learning new material or re-establishing contact with older studies. reading new music should never, ever be done with a metronome because the click becomes the priority, not the music. good time comes from the experience of playing your instrument on a regular basis and having a familiarity with your style. every great musician knows this. if you ever listen to the smoking big bands from the 1930's and 1940' s, ask yourself how 15 guys played as one without ever dragging the time, always sitting dead on the quarter note and swinging the music like it was a living entity. those bands played some of the hottest music in history and you can't tell me that a metronome ever gave those musicians the sense of time that they put out in those bands. their sense of time came from inside, and most players today don't know this or even how to find that internal place to draw from.
gary burton used a metronome as a teenager because he felt that his solos rushed too much. but, he was already a master player who wanted to deal with a specific element of his developing skills. today, guys emphasize metronomes as the way to get good time. bad mistake! the more you play, the better your time will become. automatically!
james jamerson, jerry jemmott, rocco prestia, jaco pastorius, larry graham, stanley clarke. they never used a metronome to give them what they all had, which is killer time. how do the advocates of metronomes explain that some of the greatest bass, drum, guitar, keyboard, string and horn players in music history didn't use metronomes and still have perfect time? as i said earlier, some musicians don't like to think because this question should shake up every musician who reads it.
some people are blessed with better time than others. i was blessed with good ears but a tendancy to rush. i practice with a metronome to hold me in place and strengthen my inner clock. i also use it as a tool to work out fast stuff...i start slow with the metronome holding me in place, then move it up a notch or two each time until i'm up to tempo - works great!
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