Thelonious Monk or Bud Powell?
ok all you bebop era cats, which of these afflicted giants hung the moon as far as pianistic creativity?
let's get a thread going on this.
let's get a thread going on this.
There are no comments, leave a comment.
i've tried to like monk's playing and writing for the past 20 years. i'm sure there's some brilliance there, but i still haven't found it. so my vote here clearly goes to bud with honorable mention to his over-shawdowed brother richie who was the pianist for the clifford brown/max roach quintets.
i also prefer basie over ellington but i know i'm in the minority there too! :0
larry
i also prefer basie over ellington but i know i'm in the minority there too! :0
larry
up for bud powell with strong appreciation for richie powell -- i think rp is a superb pianist, and was a perfect arranger and pianist for the brown/roach lineup(s). i don't know anyone who thinks basie wasn't one of the great pianists -- as he certainly was.
but, it should be noted that bud powell fared dismally when performing monk's compositions, imo. the disc produced by cannon was one of bud's worst, if you ask me.
but, it should be noted that bud powell fared dismally when performing monk's compositions, imo. the disc produced by cannon was one of bud's worst, if you ask me.
bud and monk were so close they were practically brothers...
they shared ideas about everything and had a completely mutual admiration.
they shared ideas about everything and had a completely mutual admiration.
yes but bud and monk haas had a big different thing between there too techniqes and so that means that both cannot both be as good so won has to have a better technique, even tho lol i didnt know what it is to do technique.
bud powell spent signifantly more time developing his technic in the as technic is conventionally understood to be.
miles said he got tired of trying to play on monk's distracting comping and replaced him with red garland and wynton kelly.
from a review of the album "bag's groove" with miles and monk:
"the great legend about this album, of course, is that miles, after an early take, told monk to "lay off" when playing behind miles. it's at least moderately understandable - monk didn't just play the chords while another cat was soloing (listen to what he does behind jackson's solo on both takes) but evolved complex and interesting - and sometimes distracting - accompanying parts. monk, though, took umbrage at this - very few great jazz musicians, i'm afraid, are known for small egos - and expressed his wounded pride (supposedly) on his solo on the second take. listen to this solo if you want to hear jazz piano stretched to its limits, with notes and chords that sound wrong (but, on reflection, are oh so right) bouncing violently all over the place. and miles actually comes in after him to play another solo, as if to remind everybody who's boss, with some nice mutations of the main melody. it's a brilliant piece of music; sadly, though, miles and monk never worked together again. "
from a review of the album "bag's groove" with miles and monk:
"the great legend about this album, of course, is that miles, after an early take, told monk to "lay off" when playing behind miles. it's at least moderately understandable - monk didn't just play the chords while another cat was soloing (listen to what he does behind jackson's solo on both takes) but evolved complex and interesting - and sometimes distracting - accompanying parts. monk, though, took umbrage at this - very few great jazz musicians, i'm afraid, are known for small egos - and expressed his wounded pride (supposedly) on his solo on the second take. listen to this solo if you want to hear jazz piano stretched to its limits, with notes and chords that sound wrong (but, on reflection, are oh so right) bouncing violently all over the place. and miles actually comes in after him to play another solo, as if to remind everybody who's boss, with some nice mutations of the main melody. it's a brilliant piece of music; sadly, though, miles and monk never worked together again. "
they both suck.
<< don't know anyone who thinks basie wasn't one of the great pianists -- as he certainly was.>>
in the wynton marsalis school of jazz, there is only armstrong and ellington, everyone else are mere imatators.....
:-)
in the wynton marsalis school of jazz, there is only armstrong and ellington, everyone else are mere imatators.....
:-)
i thought in the wynton marsalis school, there was only wynton marsalis.
;)
bud powell was trained by charlie parker.
powell's right hand consists mainly of parkeresque sinlge-note horn lines done at the speed of light (as parker did himself).
while there is an incredible amount of room for creativity in the bebop system of soloing, powell's improvisations are basically "bird for piano".
powell's right hand consists mainly of parkeresque sinlge-note horn lines done at the speed of light (as parker did himself).
while there is an incredible amount of room for creativity in the bebop system of soloing, powell's improvisations are basically "bird for piano".
i favor monk, with bud at a close second. the fact that miles recorded "round midnight" is a sincere form of flattery. so it is true that even though monk had idiosyncrasies, it is also true that his influence extended beyond the piano, just as bird and coltrane did.
you know, as odd as his playing sometimes was, i have to give the nod to monk as well. bud was one fast bopper for sure but the original question is about creativity and to me that means creating things that not only last but move beyond the immediate surroundings of the creator. you could probably find that many american’s have some familiarity with monk or his work even when they aren’t jazz fans, largely because of his written music. bud, while he wrote as well, just didn’t translate all that well beyond piano and bop. monk’s work is more lasting and influential and, i believe, more creative.
on the piano i gotta give this to bud
monk's compositions far outshine his pianistic creativity, where he basically played the wierdest chords and notes that would still work
bud pretty much defined how to play modern jazz on the piano
monk's compositions far outshine his pianistic creativity, where he basically played the wierdest chords and notes that would still work
bud pretty much defined how to play modern jazz on the piano
7 wrote:
"bud powell was trained by charlie parker.
powell's right hand consists mainly of parkeresque sinlge-note horn lines done at the speed of light (as parker did himself).
while there is an incredible amount of room for creativity in the bebop system of soloing, powell's improvisations are basically 'bird for piano'."
john writes:
do you have a cite for this, 7? i don't deny hearing a lot of parker in powell, but i hear many other things in each artist which aren't represented in the works of his peer. beyond the basic things, like use of harmonic minor harmony, free alteration of dominants, ability to construct long diatonic lines with chromatic framing, i just don't hear very much evidence that bud powell was a *disciple* of bird.
i'm not in general a skeptic -- i really think billy gibbons of zz top learned guitar while becoming chemically aware at the feet of jimi hendrix -- but i haven't heard the case presented so forcefully that bp was a student of cp, in the sense of someone like ss or hj or even ah, kwim?
"bud powell was trained by charlie parker.
powell's right hand consists mainly of parkeresque sinlge-note horn lines done at the speed of light (as parker did himself).
while there is an incredible amount of room for creativity in the bebop system of soloing, powell's improvisations are basically 'bird for piano'."
john writes:
do you have a cite for this, 7? i don't deny hearing a lot of parker in powell, but i hear many other things in each artist which aren't represented in the works of his peer. beyond the basic things, like use of harmonic minor harmony, free alteration of dominants, ability to construct long diatonic lines with chromatic framing, i just don't hear very much evidence that bud powell was a *disciple* of bird.
i'm not in general a skeptic -- i really think billy gibbons of zz top learned guitar while becoming chemically aware at the feet of jimi hendrix -- but i haven't heard the case presented so forcefully that bp was a student of cp, in the sense of someone like ss or hj or even ah, kwim?
what is it with you and cryptic initials? what is ss, hj, ah, kwim? and why should i have to ask?
there is a quote from bird where he claims to have been bud's mentor. whether or not bud has ever said so, i don't know.
at a gig, a patron commented to bird on bud's eccentric demeanor that evening. bird replied "oh, yeah. he sure is crazy, i taught him to play that way."
i may have paraphrased the quote slightly, but it is authentic.
it's also well known that bird and diz taught miles davis how to play bebop (or should i say "bird style jazz").
there is a quote from bird where he claims to have been bud's mentor. whether or not bud has ever said so, i don't know.
at a gig, a patron commented to bird on bud's eccentric demeanor that evening. bird replied "oh, yeah. he sure is crazy, i taught him to play that way."
i may have paraphrased the quote slightly, but it is authentic.
it's also well known that bird and diz taught miles davis how to play bebop (or should i say "bird style jazz").
https://www.budpowelljazz.com/music/music.html
"bud powell's music has often been described as adapting charlie parker's bebop style to the piano. other jazz authorities maintain that bud was an originator, along with parker and gillespie, of the jazz style known as bebop. all agree that bud is the father of modern jazz piano.
bud was trained in classical music as a child and his classical background plays a role in the harmonic sophistication of his music. he was also intimately familiar with the early jazz piano style known as stride and one can recognize this element, sometimes quite explicitly, in bud's playing. but the main characteristic of bud's original piano style is a lightning fast right hand that expresses on the piano what up to bud's time had only been possible on a horn.
bud was also a composer of approximately fifty tunes of great originality. many of his greatest recordings are of his own compositions like tempus fugit, bouncing with bud, dance of the infidels, hullucinations, celia, oblivion, and many others. "
"bud powell's music has often been described as adapting charlie parker's bebop style to the piano. other jazz authorities maintain that bud was an originator, along with parker and gillespie, of the jazz style known as bebop. all agree that bud is the father of modern jazz piano.
bud was trained in classical music as a child and his classical background plays a role in the harmonic sophistication of his music. he was also intimately familiar with the early jazz piano style known as stride and one can recognize this element, sometimes quite explicitly, in bud's playing. but the main characteristic of bud's original piano style is a lightning fast right hand that expresses on the piano what up to bud's time had only been possible on a horn.
bud was also a composer of approximately fifty tunes of great originality. many of his greatest recordings are of his own compositions like tempus fugit, bouncing with bud, dance of the infidels, hullucinations, celia, oblivion, and many others. "
https://www.budpowelljazz.com/life/monk.html
"bud powell and thelonious monk
an essay by carl-bernhard kjelstrup jr.
when bud powell and francis paudras, upon bud's return to the states in the fall of 1964, rang monk's doorbell, monk opened and asked, without moving a facial muscle and without any sort of greeting, "do you want to hear an airplane?" he then went on to show how the dinner plates on the grand piano, when it was standing halfway in the living room and halfway in the kitchen, made a sound he said reminded him of an airplane.
bud and monk in paris
this lack of greeting probably says more about the way these two communicated than about any lack of emotions. you need only look at the photo from their meeting at the airport in paris in the sixties to see the obvious devotion they felt for each other.
bud and monk went back a long time. when bud was a budding young pianist, it was monk who took him under his wing and promoted him when club owners were dubious. it was bud who played in the 1944 cootie williams band that made the first recording of 'round midnight. unfortunately bud is not featured on this track, but williams apparently used the recording session as a lure to get monk to sign over half the royalties on the tune. this monk later rectified.
bud also bore the brunt of an altercation monk had with the police. when he objected to the cops' treatment of monk, he was beaten about the head and dosed with ammoniated water in the cell afterwards. this apparently was the beginning of severe headaches and mental problems that haunted him for the rest of his life.
when bud in 1947 made his first recordings under his own name for roost, he chose monk's off minor as part of the repertory. according to monk bud was one of the few pianists capable of doing his music justice. and in a way they complemented each other. monk with his "weird" harmonic structures coupled with bud's harmonically advanced, but at the same time, melodic lines. the rendition is easy and swinging, a far cry from his later more challenging recordings.
bud continued to play and record monk's music until the very last. his album portrait of thelonious, recorded in paris in 1961 or '62, consists partly of monk's tunes, but bud plays all the tunes in a more angular manner than in the forties, giving the songs a new, more monk-like dimension.
listening to bud's rendition of 'round midnight from the may 1950 birdland session with charlie parker and fats navarro, one can well understand how the young pianist captivated his audience and had everybody hanging by their fingernails. the contained ecstasy in this slow number is, to say the least, harrowing.
listening to bud's version of the same song from the 1965 charlie parker memorial concert, is a psycho dramatic experience. nothing is left of the fleet melodic lines that were his hallmark twenty years earlier, but the experience is nevertheless very moving. "
"bud powell and thelonious monk
an essay by carl-bernhard kjelstrup jr.
when bud powell and francis paudras, upon bud's return to the states in the fall of 1964, rang monk's doorbell, monk opened and asked, without moving a facial muscle and without any sort of greeting, "do you want to hear an airplane?" he then went on to show how the dinner plates on the grand piano, when it was standing halfway in the living room and halfway in the kitchen, made a sound he said reminded him of an airplane.
bud and monk in paris
this lack of greeting probably says more about the way these two communicated than about any lack of emotions. you need only look at the photo from their meeting at the airport in paris in the sixties to see the obvious devotion they felt for each other.
bud and monk went back a long time. when bud was a budding young pianist, it was monk who took him under his wing and promoted him when club owners were dubious. it was bud who played in the 1944 cootie williams band that made the first recording of 'round midnight. unfortunately bud is not featured on this track, but williams apparently used the recording session as a lure to get monk to sign over half the royalties on the tune. this monk later rectified.
bud also bore the brunt of an altercation monk had with the police. when he objected to the cops' treatment of monk, he was beaten about the head and dosed with ammoniated water in the cell afterwards. this apparently was the beginning of severe headaches and mental problems that haunted him for the rest of his life.
when bud in 1947 made his first recordings under his own name for roost, he chose monk's off minor as part of the repertory. according to monk bud was one of the few pianists capable of doing his music justice. and in a way they complemented each other. monk with his "weird" harmonic structures coupled with bud's harmonically advanced, but at the same time, melodic lines. the rendition is easy and swinging, a far cry from his later more challenging recordings.
bud continued to play and record monk's music until the very last. his album portrait of thelonious, recorded in paris in 1961 or '62, consists partly of monk's tunes, but bud plays all the tunes in a more angular manner than in the forties, giving the songs a new, more monk-like dimension.
listening to bud's rendition of 'round midnight from the may 1950 birdland session with charlie parker and fats navarro, one can well understand how the young pianist captivated his audience and had everybody hanging by their fingernails. the contained ecstasy in this slow number is, to say the least, harrowing.
listening to bud's version of the same song from the 1965 charlie parker memorial concert, is a psycho dramatic experience. nothing is left of the fleet melodic lines that were his hallmark twenty years earlier, but the experience is nevertheless very moving. "
"they both suck."
thanks for the brilliant display of charm intellect and wit.
jv'
thanks for the brilliant display of charm intellect and wit.
jv'
"what is it with you and cryptic initials? what is ss, hj, ah, kwim? and why should i have to ask?
there is a quote from bird where he claims to have been bud's mentor. whether or not bud has ever said so, i don't know.
at a gig, a patron commented to bird on bud's eccentric demeanor that evening. bird replied "oh, yeah. he sure is crazy, i taught him to play that way."
i may have paraphrased the quote slightly, but it is authentic.
it's also well known that bird and diz taught miles davis how to play bebop (or should i say "bird style jazz")."
ss = sonny stitt
hj = hank jones
ah = al haig
given the context, cracking the code shouldn't have been cause for great alarm. to answer your question "why should i have to ask?" would require greater insight than i possess.
i'm aware of bird's comment on bud's craziness, and i don't doubt that bird may have considered himself bud's musical father. perhaps bud powell did learn all of the abstract concepts deployed within bop from bird -- but i don't think bp's lines are especially similar to those of cp, once the abstract features of the idiom are cropped from the picture.
there is a quote from bird where he claims to have been bud's mentor. whether or not bud has ever said so, i don't know.
at a gig, a patron commented to bird on bud's eccentric demeanor that evening. bird replied "oh, yeah. he sure is crazy, i taught him to play that way."
i may have paraphrased the quote slightly, but it is authentic.
it's also well known that bird and diz taught miles davis how to play bebop (or should i say "bird style jazz")."
ss = sonny stitt
hj = hank jones
ah = al haig
given the context, cracking the code shouldn't have been cause for great alarm. to answer your question "why should i have to ask?" would require greater insight than i possess.
i'm aware of bird's comment on bud's craziness, and i don't doubt that bird may have considered himself bud's musical father. perhaps bud powell did learn all of the abstract concepts deployed within bop from bird -- but i don't think bp's lines are especially similar to those of cp, once the abstract features of the idiom are cropped from the picture.
i don't think diz's lines or miles' lines are all that similar to bird's lines either.
but that's the beauty of the bebop system, there exists infinite possibilites to speak with your own voice inside those guidelines.
so using the same tools, bud, diz, and miles (and countless others) came up with a multitude of original ideas that were of bird yet not of bird.
and so they should.
but that's the beauty of the bebop system, there exists infinite possibilites to speak with your own voice inside those guidelines.
so using the same tools, bud, diz, and miles (and countless others) came up with a multitude of original ideas that were of bird yet not of bird.
and so they should.
there is an interesting article about monk here:
https://www.seeingblack.com/x071202/monk.shtml
also, if any of you use aol, check out radio@aol. to my utter amazement, they have an all-thelonious-monk channel, streaming
digital audio of monk or others playing his compositions, 24/7.
ed
https://www.seeingblack.com/x071202/monk.shtml
also, if any of you use aol, check out radio@aol. to my utter amazement, they have an all-thelonious-monk channel, streaming
digital audio of monk or others playing his compositions, 24/7.
ed
monk is my choice for personal reasons- his unorthodox approach to the keyboard- his flayed fingers, the "zone" he and his playing fell into
and he was a great innovator at a time when no one else was taking that road
that takes nothing away from powell, just a different approach
and he was a great innovator at a time when no one else was taking that road
that takes nothing away from powell, just a different approach
jazzvirtuoso,
you are welcome. that comment was my attempt to add something utterly ludicrous, pointless and stupid to a thread that i consider to be all those things.
we're starting to see quite a bit of 'who is better x or y' and it is frankly ridiculous. even the oscar peterson/art tatum thread, silly as it was, at least purported to talk about something tangible (in this case technique).
it is impossible to define any art or artist as being better or worse than the other. art is as much to do with the perceptions of the person experiencing the art as the artists themselves. what one person loves, another may hate. simple as that. there is no such thing as 'better' when we are talking about great artists, there is only different.
bud powell and thelonius monk are two of the most famous pianists in jazz history because they each developed their own sound and their own musical voice. monk couldn't play like bud powell and he couldn't play like monk.
i just don't see any point to these kind of spurious dicussions when all you can do is say 'i prefer' one or the other. so please forgive my earlier dismissive flippancy and accept my humble apologies. i am aware that i don't have to read these kind of threads but i'll do anything to avoid practicing. ;-)
you are welcome. that comment was my attempt to add something utterly ludicrous, pointless and stupid to a thread that i consider to be all those things.
we're starting to see quite a bit of 'who is better x or y' and it is frankly ridiculous. even the oscar peterson/art tatum thread, silly as it was, at least purported to talk about something tangible (in this case technique).
it is impossible to define any art or artist as being better or worse than the other. art is as much to do with the perceptions of the person experiencing the art as the artists themselves. what one person loves, another may hate. simple as that. there is no such thing as 'better' when we are talking about great artists, there is only different.
bud powell and thelonius monk are two of the most famous pianists in jazz history because they each developed their own sound and their own musical voice. monk couldn't play like bud powell and he couldn't play like monk.
i just don't see any point to these kind of spurious dicussions when all you can do is say 'i prefer' one or the other. so please forgive my earlier dismissive flippancy and accept my humble apologies. i am aware that i don't have to read these kind of threads but i'll do anything to avoid practicing. ;-)
i'm with barry.
what happened? i was busy practicing :)
everybody was kung fu fighting
...the story of my life everybody's kung fu fighting and i'm off wang chung'n
the original point was: bud or monk, who is more creative pianistically?
i agree with barry's right to free expression. but the beauty
of a thread like this is free discussion, and opinion.
both bud and monk were cutting edge in their own way. but
as the professor would say. support your answers with reasons.
i agree with barry's right to free expression. but the beauty
of a thread like this is free discussion, and opinion.
both bud and monk were cutting edge in their own way. but
as the professor would say. support your answers with reasons.
i like bud, but it gives me a headache. i've never tried monk:)
another piano artist of those times was hampton hawes.
does anyone have any insight into this cat?
some of his work with art pepper deserves a listen.
does anyone have any insight into this cat?
some of his work with art pepper deserves a listen.
what kind of insight are you looking for? i've transcribed a couple of his solos ( i think -- maybe just one) and many more little fragments of his playing (from the days before i really understood why transcribing is of value). instantly recognizable -- like wynton kelly, he has a number of little licks that are a part of his style. kind of a brittle touch, like wynton kelly, tommy flanagan, or horace silver, as opposed to a more "fleshy" sounding sonny clark or barry harris or frank hewitt tone. i like "the challenge" for solo piano as well -- kind of technical lh walking bass, in that his grace notes sound more like a dotted rhythm rather than the less cleanly articulated grace notes hammond players use in their lh. his montreux album playing rhodes is excellent as well -- excellent rhodes feel and sound. the "seance" record is one i still listen to, but i personally don't find a reason to listen to him as much as when i was a teenager.
yeah, that's what i'm talkin about. he was known to insert little
snippets of well know melodies into his improv. like irish jigs and stuff like that.
snippets of well know melodies into his improv. like irish jigs and stuff like that.
on the 1954 sonny clark memorial album, sonny clark, for a couple of bars, *imitates* hawes dead-on. it's a very good impersonation.
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