Roman numbers on chords
can anyone explain the system that uses roman numbers instead of chordnames. like ii v7 i, instead of (in c major) dm7, g7, cmaj? and how do you write tritone substitutes with roman numbers ex: dm7, db7, cmaj)?
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johh mehegan likes to use the roman numeral methods.
i think it's a great way to learn tunes because you aren't constrained to a chord progression in a key, you know the chord progression in all keys. it's based off the way classical music is analyzed, but some of the ways we add numbers and other symbols might be different.
large roman numbers, v, ii, iii, iv, etc, mean major chords, small ones (ii, vi, iv) mean minor chords.
basically, a 2-5-1 in c: dm7 - g7 - cm7
in roman numerals: iim7 - v7 - im7
when you ask how you would sub things like dm7 and db7, etc, you would do it in respect to the key signature of the song.
in the key of c, db7 would be... well, i'm not sure :) maybe iib7?
but in the key of db, db7 would be i7.
there are some others here that really know this stuff, hopefully they'll chime in.
one note- i think of chords in the tunes i play as roman numerals, sort of. take what's new for example. it opens with a cm7, but in my mind i'm thinking "one major 7". in the bridge it's the same thing, but it changes to the key of f, and then i'm also thinking "one major 7" because in my mind i've slipped into the key of f.
i think it's a great way to learn tunes because you aren't constrained to a chord progression in a key, you know the chord progression in all keys. it's based off the way classical music is analyzed, but some of the ways we add numbers and other symbols might be different.
large roman numbers, v, ii, iii, iv, etc, mean major chords, small ones (ii, vi, iv) mean minor chords.
basically, a 2-5-1 in c: dm7 - g7 - cm7
in roman numerals: iim7 - v7 - im7
when you ask how you would sub things like dm7 and db7, etc, you would do it in respect to the key signature of the song.
in the key of c, db7 would be... well, i'm not sure :) maybe iib7?
but in the key of db, db7 would be i7.
there are some others here that really know this stuff, hopefully they'll chime in.
one note- i think of chords in the tunes i play as roman numerals, sort of. take what's new for example. it opens with a cm7, but in my mind i'm thinking "one major 7". in the bridge it's the same thing, but it changes to the key of f, and then i'm also thinking "one major 7" because in my mind i've slipped into the key of f.
If I'm not back in 24 hours, call the president.
Scot is available for skype jazz piano lessons (and google hangouts, phone call, etc...)
Use the contact link at the top of the page.
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Use the contact link at the top of the page.
by Scot Ranney on 10/24/2005, 13:48
dm7 - db7 - cmaj7 = iim7 - subv7/i - imaj7
in other words, on tritone subs you use subv7 followed by a slash and the scale step it resolves to.
savage
in other words, on tritone subs you use subv7 followed by a slash and the scale step it resolves to.
savage
in c, db7 would most likely be bii7. a db7 in the key of db could either be i7, or v7/iv. this depends on the context in which it is played. in a blues, for instance, it would be i7. although you can use lowercase numerals for minors, in jazz analysis, it's not really needed because of the symbols -7 or mi7. i have always found it easier to read larger case. this is really a matter of preference, though.
"i think it's a great way to learn tunes because you aren't constrained to a chord progression in a key, you know the chord progression in all keys."
i totally agree.
"and how do you write tritone substitutes with roman numbers ex: dm7, db7, cmaj)?"
this would be ii-7, subv7, imaj7.
i can go into more detail about some of this stuff later.
"i think it's a great way to learn tunes because you aren't constrained to a chord progression in a key, you know the chord progression in all keys."
i totally agree.
"and how do you write tritone substitutes with roman numbers ex: dm7, db7, cmaj)?"
this would be ii-7, subv7, imaj7.
i can go into more detail about some of this stuff later.
"this would be ii-7, subv7, imaj7."
um, ok, so i accidently used lowercase :o) don't know why i did that! i'd actually write it ii-7, subv7, imaj7.
um, ok, so i accidently used lowercase :o) don't know why i did that! i'd actually write it ii-7, subv7, imaj7.
"in other words, on tritone subs you use subv7 followed by a slash and the scale step it resolves to."
yeah, but, the bottom number isn't really needed if it is the subv of the i.......you wouldn't write v7/i for a g7 in the key of c. you'd just write v7. in every other case, however, the bottom number is needed.
yeah, but, the bottom number isn't really needed if it is the subv of the i.......you wouldn't write v7/i for a g7 in the key of c. you'd just write v7. in every other case, however, the bottom number is needed.
"i would automatically assume that the symbol after the slash would indicate a bass note."
if it were an arabic number, yes. when the roman numeral is there, it indicates that the dominant chord is the v of that degree of the scale(i.e. a d7 in the key of g would be v7/v).
if it were an arabic number, yes. when the roman numeral is there, it indicates that the dominant chord is the v of that degree of the scale(i.e. a d7 in the key of g would be v7/v).
this is very confusing. i really don't understand what information the v7/v conveys that a simple v7 doesn't. please explain.
not that this is news to you, dalty, but just in the way of further explaining something i think you forgot to mention, the reason for the v7 of v etc. business is that, in classical roman numeral analysis, dominant chords only occur *as* dominants to a tonic. they have to be explained, wherever they occur, as the v7 of some other tonic, and can't be analyzed "just because" they sound nice. chords can be borrowed from other tonalities, but they are always recognized as borrowings in classical analysis. therefore, in the key of c, a d7 isn't really an altered ii chord, but is a v7 of v -- for the reason that any v7 chord is a v7 *of* its tonic.
please elaborate further if i've misspoken -- but this seems to be an important background point.
please elaborate further if i've misspoken -- but this seems to be an important background point.
yeah, that's the jist(gist?) of it. basically, these dominants aren't in the key, yet they relate to something that is in the key, so you show that relationship. since the dominant to tonic relationship is one of the strongest relationships in western harmony, it makes sense that they would be analyzed this way. now, remember, they are only analyzed like this when they are the v of a scale degree that's in the key. if you have a bb7 and are in the key of c, it is analyzed as bvii7, not v7/biii, because, obviously, eb is not in the key of c.
the way mehegan spells out tri-tones is, bii7.
man, i haven't heard the term "five of five" since dr. carroll's theory class back in the seventies. all of us working musicians sitting in the back of the class knew it as " one of them off chords" the country boys would call during the the bridge of a slow rock or country tune. we then learned that these major ii's were called secondary dominants.
i wouldn't have it any other way.
https://www.learnjazzpiano.com/citadel/1130201473/56fccc2ec7_slashbass.pdf
2/27/05
that link didn't work. did you mean to put this one?
https://learnjazzpiano.com/citadel/1130203280/56fccc2ec7_slashbass.pdf
"i wouldn't have it any other way."
i don't get what you're trying to say. in this .pdf, all of the slash-notated chords have a regular(arabic) number to the right of the slash, thus i'm assuming you are agreeing with what we have been saying so far. i'm just a little confused, because it seemed at the beginning that you disagreed with the fact that roman numerals to the right of the slash do not designate a bass note, but rather a scale degree in the key.
"the way mehegan spells out tri-tones is, bii7."
i think subv7 makes more sense, because that's what it is.......it's a substitute chord for the v. and, not only is it a substitute, but the tritone is the same, and you can use the same voicings for each(a textbook g7alt voicing works as a db7 with a 9 and 13). i mean, it's just analysis..........there's really not a set way to do it. but, i guess it's sort of like writing a paper: the best choice of word(s) is usually the one that gives the most clear representation of what the author is trying to convey. i think that knowing that it is a substitute for a dominant, and thinking about it as such, will give the musician a greater understanding of how to blow over it, thus allowing he or she to convey, just as an author conveys a character in a story, the dominant to tonic resolution.
https://learnjazzpiano.com/citadel/1130203280/56fccc2ec7_slashbass.pdf
"i wouldn't have it any other way."
i don't get what you're trying to say. in this .pdf, all of the slash-notated chords have a regular(arabic) number to the right of the slash, thus i'm assuming you are agreeing with what we have been saying so far. i'm just a little confused, because it seemed at the beginning that you disagreed with the fact that roman numerals to the right of the slash do not designate a bass note, but rather a scale degree in the key.
"the way mehegan spells out tri-tones is, bii7."
i think subv7 makes more sense, because that's what it is.......it's a substitute chord for the v. and, not only is it a substitute, but the tritone is the same, and you can use the same voicings for each(a textbook g7alt voicing works as a db7 with a 9 and 13). i mean, it's just analysis..........there's really not a set way to do it. but, i guess it's sort of like writing a paper: the best choice of word(s) is usually the one that gives the most clear representation of what the author is trying to convey. i think that knowing that it is a substitute for a dominant, and thinking about it as such, will give the musician a greater understanding of how to blow over it, thus allowing he or she to convey, just as an author conveys a character in a story, the dominant to tonic resolution.
what i was getting at is that if i was reading through a piece for the first time on the fly and saw a slash i would've thought "bass note" rather than "analysis".
so, yes i'm totally agreeing that slash bass notes should be arabic numbers.
as far as reading charts is concerned, i would much rather see bii7 than subv7. and i'd much rather see ii7 in a chart than v7/v.
that slash roman numeral notation should be reserved for analysis only not sightreading.
* * * * * * *
the link that i gave worked fine before, but now neither one of them work - strange...
so, yes i'm totally agreeing that slash bass notes should be arabic numbers.
as far as reading charts is concerned, i would much rather see bii7 than subv7. and i'd much rather see ii7 in a chart than v7/v.
that slash roman numeral notation should be reserved for analysis only not sightreading.
* * * * * * *
the link that i gave worked fine before, but now neither one of them work - strange...
for anybody that that those links don't work for, you can go to the room on this site called "7's heaven" click on "list files" and it's the one at the top: "generic slash bass notation".
or go here
https://www.jeff-brent.com/lessons/slashbass.html
or go here
https://www.jeff-brent.com/lessons/slashbass.html
"as far as reading charts is concerned, i would much rather see bii7 than subv7. and i'd much rather see ii7 in a chart than v7/v.
that slash roman numeral notation should be reserved for analysis only not sightreading."
yeah, i agree. although, i've never had a gig where i had to sight read roman numerals, have you?
that slash roman numeral notation should be reserved for analysis only not sightreading."
yeah, i agree. although, i've never had a gig where i had to sight read roman numerals, have you?
note- you can't link to files here. i'll be putting a token system in to make it easy to do that, but since the download directory changes on a regular basis (to keep people from linking directly to files) it's better just to put the filename so someone can search for it.
If I'm not back in 24 hours, call the president.
Scot is available for skype jazz piano lessons (and google hangouts, phone call, etc...)
Use the contact link at the top of the page.
Scot is available for skype jazz piano lessons (and google hangouts, phone call, etc...)
Use the contact link at the top of the page.
by Scot Ranney on 10/25/2005, 12:05
"note- you can't link to files here."
you can't? they seem to be working fine to me.
you can't? they seem to be working fine to me.
i think scot was talking about links to uploaded files on the site here. that what 7 was trying to point to.
woah, that is weird. the link i posted worked when i was at home this morning, and it pointed to the .pdf on this site. now it isn't working.
computers like to toy with us!
"computers like to toy with us!"
no kidding. although, ever since switching from pc to mac, i've experienced a lot less of that! the throne now belongs to its rightful heir.
no kidding. although, ever since switching from pc to mac, i've experienced a lot less of that! the throne now belongs to its rightful heir.
the problem with computers is we expect them to act as machines but in fact they act organically. this, of course, comes as a real shock to those of us who may have gotten into the business because of the beauty of logic!
honestly, i sometimes eeriely wonder if a pc may catch our brain waves at times, after all, our brains operate on electricity, and may be sending signals similar to a radio transmitter! maybe in the future...
can anyone explain the system that uses roman numbers instead of chordnames. like ii v7 i, instead of (in c major) dm7, g7, cmaj? and how do you write tritone substitutes with roman numbers ex: dm7, db7, cmaj)?
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