Time and phrasing
i am working on my time and phrasing for the moment. do you have any good suggestions on how to improve it? except for transcribing.... what do you think of forward motion by hal galper? is it any good?
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well the age old answer given to "how to work on time" is to work with a metronome. set the click to "2" and "4" and really try to bury the click so that you are playing in really good time. burying the click may be more for drummers cause if you're playing the hi-hat on 2 and 4, you just won't hear the click.
but, i believe that this is a kind of incomplete response to this question. the problem is this: responsibility. by playing with a standard metronome, you are really never forced to be responsible for any more than 2 beats at a time. and while you're practicing with the metronome and really lining up with the clik, you may have problems on the bandstand because you're lured into a false confidence that you have really good time. the metronome definately improves your time and has worked for many people i'm sure, but--for me--the real answer to improving your time is to increase your responsibility and also your confidence (because that is real important too when it comes to time) by not having the metronome clik every other beat for you.
get a drum machine--a cheap one will do. i think sam ash has one (zoom) for like a 120 bucks, or you can use a sequencer of some type. set up the time by establishing several measures of quarter notes and then just leave blank space for 1 or 2 measures. and try to nail the "1" when the groove or quarter notes come back in. at first, you may have problems just playing a couple of measures in good time and coming back in perfectly on the 1. gradually increase the amount of measures of silence until you can comfortably come back in on 1. when i started practicing like this my time really started to improve. you may be better at keeping time in certain styles, ie-your funk playing may be better than your jazz, etc. at first, i really struggled at playing a samba in good time-it was really frustrating. but just keep on doing it--20 mins a day. i wish i was taught this stupid little exercise when i first started playing, but sometimes you have to figure stuff out the hard way.
good luck.
-j
but, i believe that this is a kind of incomplete response to this question. the problem is this: responsibility. by playing with a standard metronome, you are really never forced to be responsible for any more than 2 beats at a time. and while you're practicing with the metronome and really lining up with the clik, you may have problems on the bandstand because you're lured into a false confidence that you have really good time. the metronome definately improves your time and has worked for many people i'm sure, but--for me--the real answer to improving your time is to increase your responsibility and also your confidence (because that is real important too when it comes to time) by not having the metronome clik every other beat for you.
get a drum machine--a cheap one will do. i think sam ash has one (zoom) for like a 120 bucks, or you can use a sequencer of some type. set up the time by establishing several measures of quarter notes and then just leave blank space for 1 or 2 measures. and try to nail the "1" when the groove or quarter notes come back in. at first, you may have problems just playing a couple of measures in good time and coming back in perfectly on the 1. gradually increase the amount of measures of silence until you can comfortably come back in on 1. when i started practicing like this my time really started to improve. you may be better at keeping time in certain styles, ie-your funk playing may be better than your jazz, etc. at first, i really struggled at playing a samba in good time-it was really frustrating. but just keep on doing it--20 mins a day. i wish i was taught this stupid little exercise when i first started playing, but sometimes you have to figure stuff out the hard way.
good luck.
-j
by "bury the click", pnowanabe means that you are playing so precisely in time that your hit coincides exactly with the click.
while practicing drums with a metronome, it soon became evident that if i could hear the click it meant that i was either a little in front of or a little behind the beat.
it's called "the heart of the beat" and it's amazing how much groove you can get on even with a sterile metronome when you're in that place.
while practicing drums with a metronome, it soon became evident that if i could hear the click it meant that i was either a little in front of or a little behind the beat.
it's called "the heart of the beat" and it's amazing how much groove you can get on even with a sterile metronome when you're in that place.
what aspect of time are you asking about? are you wondering about "feel" or just keeping in time with a pulse? they are different skills and topics.
ps:
forward motion is the finest book for jazz phrasing.
ps:
forward motion is the finest book for jazz phrasing.
i am thinking of "feel". i have practise so much with metronome and on the bandstand, so that i have a rather good pulse. the problem is to get the good flow in my lines and that good "feel". i will check out fm....
for "feel" play your right hand lines 50-100 milliseconds behind the beat. if you are playing solo piano your left hand should be on top of the pulse and your right hand behind it.
play your eighth notes slurred and legato with a triplet swing and a very subtle light accent on the "ands."
if an eighth note is followed by a rest, play it short.
play quarter notes dettached (shorter but not staccato).
anything longer than a quarter note gets full value.
play your eighth notes slurred and legato with a triplet swing and a very subtle light accent on the "ands."
if an eighth note is followed by a rest, play it short.
play quarter notes dettached (shorter but not staccato).
anything longer than a quarter note gets full value.
don't hammer the keys when playing lines.
patience
you asked about forward motion by hal galper. in my opinion, it is the finest work in its field.
hay samba experts out there, how do i practice to be able to read bossa? it is sincopated and my timing sucks when it is on the upbeats!
well--i'm no expert, but practice slow with a metronome cliking the 8ths, or subdivide them strongly in your head.
btw, bossa and samba are 2 different things, you know. bossa is generally slower and felt in 4, and samba is generally faster and felt in 2. samba precedes bossa as a musical style of brazil.
-j
btw, bossa and samba are 2 different things, you know. bossa is generally slower and felt in 4, and samba is generally faster and felt in 2. samba precedes bossa as a musical style of brazil.
-j
yes but the patterns are very similar and can even be the same. bossa can be like slow samba. both are played in cut time which means 2 beats per bar (2/2), not 4/4. the half note gets the pulse, not the quarter notes. it feels too stiff in 4/4.
scroll down this linked page for an example of "the true bossa nova" by brazilian piano master marcos silva.
https://www.megatar.com/documents/newsletters/archive/mtn-200110.html
https://www.megatar.com/documents/newsletters/archive/mtn-200110.html
they write everything in brazil for bossa or samba in 2/4. so you play the real book bossa novas and sambas in cut time since they are written "incorectly" in 4/4
a good exercise is to do transcription, and play with the recording... helps acquiring the phrasing of the masters.
jazz+,
the 2 rhythms on that page (the 1st commonly reffered to as the brazilian clave although doesn't have the importance as the clave of afro-cuban music) and the other one --a typical brazilian pattern---are pretty much used interchangeably i've found, especially from a drummers perspective. check out duduka da fonseca and airto and guilherme franco--they use these rhythms interchangeable all the time.
as far as bossas being written in 2 and not 4--corcovado, dindi, favela, black orpheus,once i loved, meditation, summer samba (which is a bossa), and triste to name a few are all written in 4 and felt in 4 imo. whereas, tunes like tristeza and samba de orpheus--sambas--are written and felt in 2. they just move to fast to be felt in 4--it would be too heavy. according to ed uribe and ney rosauro--a world reknown brazilian percussionist--the bossa is generally felt in 4 and samba in 2.
if you never come to me, how insensitive, and gentle rain, as well as watch what happens--all bossas writtne in 4 and felt in 4. girl with emphysema is another one, but you could play any of these as a samba too--my group usually plays this as a samba. as a drummer, it's usually faster and i'm playing a little lighter and i'm definately feeling it in 2. it's a grey line to be sure. but when you got a native saying they're a bit different--its good to take heed.
-j
the 2 rhythms on that page (the 1st commonly reffered to as the brazilian clave although doesn't have the importance as the clave of afro-cuban music) and the other one --a typical brazilian pattern---are pretty much used interchangeably i've found, especially from a drummers perspective. check out duduka da fonseca and airto and guilherme franco--they use these rhythms interchangeable all the time.
as far as bossas being written in 2 and not 4--corcovado, dindi, favela, black orpheus,once i loved, meditation, summer samba (which is a bossa), and triste to name a few are all written in 4 and felt in 4 imo. whereas, tunes like tristeza and samba de orpheus--sambas--are written and felt in 2. they just move to fast to be felt in 4--it would be too heavy. according to ed uribe and ney rosauro--a world reknown brazilian percussionist--the bossa is generally felt in 4 and samba in 2.
if you never come to me, how insensitive, and gentle rain, as well as watch what happens--all bossas writtne in 4 and felt in 4. girl with emphysema is another one, but you could play any of these as a samba too--my group usually plays this as a samba. as a drummer, it's usually faster and i'm playing a little lighter and i'm definately feeling it in 2. it's a grey line to be sure. but when you got a native saying they're a bit different--its good to take heed.
-j
i am gazing at my copy of "tom jobim songbook vol. 3", in portugese, published in brazil by lumiar editora. the editor is jobim's associate almir chediak. corcovado is in cut time, dindi is in 4/4, girl from ipanema is in cut time, how insensitive is in cut time, mediation is in cut time...
you should the girl from ipanema a try in cut time, it feels so much more relaxed. it feels like a march in 4/4.
you should the girl from ipanema a try in cut time, it feels so much more relaxed. it feels like a march in 4/4.
in 4/4 they play 1/16th notes, in cut time they play 1/8th notes.
listen how the bass establishes a feeling of cut time on most bossas.
listen how the bass establishes a feeling of cut time on most bossas.
start thinking in 16th notes.
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