Arranging Tunes
if one listens to the midi files in this site, one will find many variations in arranging the music in ways not particulary discussed anywhere.
i'm going to stick to solo piano here since that's where the issues lie. how does one come up with good arrangments for solo piano?
we can lay out the lh techniques, walking tenths, modern stride, arpeggiated chords, etc. but often the music in the midi files here are personal and unique arrangements.
so how does one go about arranging a nice ballad for example?
issues:
1. bass beat often varies (how long can you go without a bass note).
2. rules for mixing up styles (swing and/or slow ballad in same tune).
3. rubato vs. consistent time
4. decisions on time feel.
5. where to put the melody (register and hands).
6. bass only or chords?
7. block chords vs shell voicings
8. ornamentation common in ballads
9. intros and endings
10. octave/unison playing
11. when to walk the bass or when to go for half note bass
12. tenths vs. ninths vs. fifths on bass
i can go on and on here. is there some good book that is a good instructional on this? how did you pros figure this out? or did you just copy somebody else's arrangement?
i'm going to stick to solo piano here since that's where the issues lie. how does one come up with good arrangments for solo piano?
we can lay out the lh techniques, walking tenths, modern stride, arpeggiated chords, etc. but often the music in the midi files here are personal and unique arrangements.
so how does one go about arranging a nice ballad for example?
issues:
1. bass beat often varies (how long can you go without a bass note).
2. rules for mixing up styles (swing and/or slow ballad in same tune).
3. rubato vs. consistent time
4. decisions on time feel.
5. where to put the melody (register and hands).
6. bass only or chords?
7. block chords vs shell voicings
8. ornamentation common in ballads
9. intros and endings
10. octave/unison playing
11. when to walk the bass or when to go for half note bass
12. tenths vs. ninths vs. fifths on bass
i can go on and on here. is there some good book that is a good instructional on this? how did you pros figure this out? or did you just copy somebody else's arrangement?
There are 15 comments, leave a comment.
there is no shortcut or secret really, there exists i'm sure books on this however. in my opinion it's an experience thing, the more you play and perform, and try to "catch" those notes, lines, chords etc in your head" (hopefully they are there if not forget it!), the more "pro" your sound gets. plus you need good chops. i've found constructive criticism helpful. for example, "try not to run around so much man, lay a groove." of course some of the things you've listed are good to study, especially "intros and endings" for one. i've also found it depends on the particular sound of the piano you're playing. plus i find it a good idea to utilize every register of the piano. i've noticed many players hardly ever use the higher registers. why are there 88 keys, after all?
i know that many players will mix all of the above in one tune. but some of these decisions affect the groove as you say. i had two teachers with two general schools of thought. one tended to rubato, while the other tended to always keep a groove and tended not to mix styles. i like the idea of starting rubato and then building to a groove, only because it makes the music interesting without even requiring an improv.
i'm particularly interested in the thought process of the players who posted midi files here because obviously some advanced thought was made on arranging the tunes. i'm just interested in how they made decisions, particularly since i don't have the long experience to draw from.
i'm particularly interested in the thought process of the players who posted midi files here because obviously some advanced thought was made on arranging the tunes. i'm just interested in how they made decisions, particularly since i don't have the long experience to draw from.
any more advice here? help!
i did order solo piano by neal olmsted. i'll get it next week. maybe someone can give us a book review.
i did order solo piano by neal olmsted. i'll get it next week. maybe someone can give us a book review.
a standard arrangement form is:
intro
verse 1
verse 2
chorus/bridge
solos over verse(s) and/or bridge/chorus
verse 3 (or one of the verses already sung)
chorus/bridge
chorus/bridge
coda
assuming that a section takes up about 20 seconds each, the above arrangement fills up about three minutes.
as for the intro, a common techinque is to use the last 4 bars (or last eight bars) of one of the sections.
as for the coda (aka outro) a common technique is to use what i call a "trio tag" ie. the last line is repeated 3 times then out.
if the vocalist is singing the verses and chorus/bridge then the comping should be minimalistic.
if there is no vocalist, then work out several possible solo scenarios to fill up the time between stating the head(s) at the beginning and end of the piece.
as for lh work during the solo sections, it's great to be innovative but often a solid yet simple lh is the best approach.
as far as clever tricks to include, go listen to the "best midis on ljp", decide what you like and then slow 'em down with vanbasco and steal like mad - you can't go wrong.
just don't forget to try to figure out the thought process behind those tunes so you can build upon those principles to enhance your own improvisations/compositions.
intro
verse 1
verse 2
chorus/bridge
solos over verse(s) and/or bridge/chorus
verse 3 (or one of the verses already sung)
chorus/bridge
chorus/bridge
coda
assuming that a section takes up about 20 seconds each, the above arrangement fills up about three minutes.
as for the intro, a common techinque is to use the last 4 bars (or last eight bars) of one of the sections.
as for the coda (aka outro) a common technique is to use what i call a "trio tag" ie. the last line is repeated 3 times then out.
if the vocalist is singing the verses and chorus/bridge then the comping should be minimalistic.
if there is no vocalist, then work out several possible solo scenarios to fill up the time between stating the head(s) at the beginning and end of the piece.
as for lh work during the solo sections, it's great to be innovative but often a solid yet simple lh is the best approach.
as far as clever tricks to include, go listen to the "best midis on ljp", decide what you like and then slow 'em down with vanbasco and steal like mad - you can't go wrong.
just don't forget to try to figure out the thought process behind those tunes so you can build upon those principles to enhance your own improvisations/compositions.
that's exactly the problem 7. i did listen (and look) to those midis and the arrangements are unique and creative. if you're a newbie looking for chords on the lh and melody on the rh, you're not going to find it in most of these examples. many have varying bass approaches, no fixed repetition. or melodies interspersed between lh and rh combined chords. or your just friends with the repetitive root of the v chord on the lh.
i do it the simple way right now. i stick to only a couple of styles. i do the modified stride (1 + 5, or 1 + chord) on the lh with melody on the rh. or i do a tenth on the left hand and melody on the rh. if i want to lay a groove, i walk the bass or do the half-note bass as i learned here. it is very simple. it doesn't compare with what you guys do and that makes me think it is insufficient at least for solo piano. it doesn't seem flowery enough.
thanks for the intro/outro tips.
i do it the simple way right now. i stick to only a couple of styles. i do the modified stride (1 + 5, or 1 + chord) on the lh with melody on the rh. or i do a tenth on the left hand and melody on the rh. if i want to lay a groove, i walk the bass or do the half-note bass as i learned here. it is very simple. it doesn't compare with what you guys do and that makes me think it is insufficient at least for solo piano. it doesn't seem flowery enough.
thanks for the intro/outro tips.
thanks solart and 7 for the advice.
7's advice is pertinent to our struggling group as we are currently trying to work out what we should be doing in terms of song orders and how long it would take if we were performing etc. i'm assuming that the comping should support but at least 'not get in the way' of soloists as well as vocalists?
7's advice is pertinent to our struggling group as we are currently trying to work out what we should be doing in terms of song orders and how long it would take if we were performing etc. i'm assuming that the comping should support but at least 'not get in the way' of soloists as well as vocalists?
rc,
if you are looking at more "flowery" then maybe get some books such as the steinway and sons "piano stylings" books. there are three of them, and they are more of a cocktail style than jazz, but they will certainly teach you some interesting things about arranging and they are ideally suited for solo piano.
i learned an enormous amount from these books, mainly in terms of playing more interesting chords. i knew how to make interesting chords, but found i wasn't really applying them very well until i analyzed what was going on in these arrangements.
if you are looking at more "flowery" then maybe get some books such as the steinway and sons "piano stylings" books. there are three of them, and they are more of a cocktail style than jazz, but they will certainly teach you some interesting things about arranging and they are ideally suited for solo piano.
i learned an enormous amount from these books, mainly in terms of playing more interesting chords. i knew how to make interesting chords, but found i wasn't really applying them very well until i analyzed what was going on in these arrangements.
why not use the bridge as a kind of intro? keith jarrett did this with "all the things you are", and it seemed pretty creative to me.
i was going to discuss some specifics on the midis but for some reason my van basco fails to create a sound now. so i have some figuring out to do (i'll try to fix this so i can discuss specifics).
i did say i am familiar with the above styles you mentioned and i use them as well. but i noticed a lot of mixing of these styles. doug's passing chords -- i'll look at that. in the past doug's stuff has been understandable because the styling is consistent and the groove is fixed. scot's stuff, from memory, tends to be quite varied. he comes to mind as doing other stuff in addition. maybe i'm seeing passing chords in both lh and rh and when you're watching the van basco midi player, it looks more complex than it really is. maybe a lot of it is just arpeggiated passing chords?
touche on the key! lol. i was just going off from memory of what i heard. with cm7 against the g it sure reminded me of the v chord, without thinking about the key. however, as a general technique though, i've seen that the drone used is often the v chord. i remember a specific application of it with someone playing "linus and lucy" (not guaraldi). this drone is something i hear frequently in solo piano. a pretty good effect.
i did say i am familiar with the above styles you mentioned and i use them as well. but i noticed a lot of mixing of these styles. doug's passing chords -- i'll look at that. in the past doug's stuff has been understandable because the styling is consistent and the groove is fixed. scot's stuff, from memory, tends to be quite varied. he comes to mind as doing other stuff in addition. maybe i'm seeing passing chords in both lh and rh and when you're watching the van basco midi player, it looks more complex than it really is. maybe a lot of it is just arpeggiated passing chords?
touche on the key! lol. i was just going off from memory of what i heard. with cm7 against the g it sure reminded me of the v chord, without thinking about the key. however, as a general technique though, i've seen that the drone used is often the v chord. i remember a specific application of it with someone playing "linus and lucy" (not guaraldi). this drone is something i hear frequently in solo piano. a pretty good effect.
ok 7, i got van basco running again and i happen to have doug mckenzie's just friends already loaded so i just played it.
this is one of the issues of arranging i'm talking about. i see what he is doing on the left hand. he uses partial stride, then he would go into the chord, and would go half step up and down, i guess that would be the passing chord you're referring to. that would be a good one to practice. technically ok. that's a good one to learn.
i also see him using the drone on the lh.
the rh is not as clear to me. now not knowing anything better, let's say i encountered the tune for the first time, i would play melody on the rh and the lh pattern as described above. but if you listen to this, he is not playing just a melody with the rh. it is a complex rework of the melody.
how does one analyze a new tune and come up with all this? there's a lot of ornamentation. is he just improvising in between gaps in the melody? it is not a question of complexity. by itself it is not complex to execute. what is complex is how to come up with the idea itself. remember here that the lh is already playing a chord. so repeating the chord on the rh would be doubling. and he is not doing that.
this is one of the issues of arranging i'm talking about. i see what he is doing on the left hand. he uses partial stride, then he would go into the chord, and would go half step up and down, i guess that would be the passing chord you're referring to. that would be a good one to practice. technically ok. that's a good one to learn.
i also see him using the drone on the lh.
the rh is not as clear to me. now not knowing anything better, let's say i encountered the tune for the first time, i would play melody on the rh and the lh pattern as described above. but if you listen to this, he is not playing just a melody with the rh. it is a complex rework of the melody.
how does one analyze a new tune and come up with all this? there's a lot of ornamentation. is he just improvising in between gaps in the melody? it is not a question of complexity. by itself it is not complex to execute. what is complex is how to come up with the idea itself. remember here that the lh is already playing a chord. so repeating the chord on the rh would be doubling. and he is not doing that.
i hit post accidentally...continuing.
now i'm listening to scot on speak low. i see the left hand either walking or doing half note bass patterns. sometimes doing stride. but the rh is definitely not doing just melody. he is doing chords with melody. i can't tell if the lh hand is helping with some of the chords there.
the question is how does one learn to do this kind of arranging. obviously one cannot just pick up a lead sheet and start doing all this. it is apparent that a lot of thought was made in organizing these tunes. so this is kind of an advanced lesson question. arranging tips.
scot always mentions the ten finger concept vs. two hands but it's hard to interpret that and apply in a practical sense without some actual exercises to think about.
comments?
now i'm listening to scot on speak low. i see the left hand either walking or doing half note bass patterns. sometimes doing stride. but the rh is definitely not doing just melody. he is doing chords with melody. i can't tell if the lh hand is helping with some of the chords there.
the question is how does one learn to do this kind of arranging. obviously one cannot just pick up a lead sheet and start doing all this. it is apparent that a lot of thought was made in organizing these tunes. so this is kind of an advanced lesson question. arranging tips.
scot always mentions the ten finger concept vs. two hands but it's hard to interpret that and apply in a practical sense without some actual exercises to think about.
comments?
now this is kind of nice, on doug's version of speak low, he actually wrote an explanation in the karaoke section! it says
"melody played by both hands 2 octaves apart. chords played in gaps between melodic phrases. etc..."
that was helpful, because it explained specifically what's going on.
"melody played by both hands 2 octaves apart. chords played in gaps between melodic phrases. etc..."
that was helpful, because it explained specifically what's going on.
doug mckenzie commonly puts comments in his midi files that tell you exactly what he's playing or what he was thinking about while arranging the tune.
if you have cakewalk, the comments appear above each section in question (in vanbasco they just appear in the "lyrics window" which is not particularly useful).
maybe doug will respond to your post and give you more info on how to access these incredibly useful and educational comments.
as far as scot's playing is concerned, he's an enigma <g>
if you have cakewalk, the comments appear above each section in question (in vanbasco they just appear in the "lyrics window" which is not particularly useful).
maybe doug will respond to your post and give you more info on how to access these incredibly useful and educational comments.
as far as scot's playing is concerned, he's an enigma <g>
these midi files are beautiful to listen to if you really play them on a real piano. running them on the built in piano sound on the computer does not do them justice.
in any case 7, obviously solo piano is a different animal and the explanations about doing this are sparse. each one of these must have taken a lot of work either from just long experience or arranging skill. i can pick up little things by myself but there's a lot here.
in any case 7, obviously solo piano is a different animal and the explanations about doing this are sparse. each one of these must have taken a lot of work either from just long experience or arranging skill. i can pick up little things by myself but there's a lot here.
thanks for providing that info doug. i don't have cakewalk/sonar so scrolling of the notes aside, are the notes in the van basco karaoke window complete?
any other tips you can add in general about arranging solo piano?
any other tips you can add in general about arranging solo piano?
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