Playing standards in different keys
i just wanted to check out people's thoughts on playing standards in different keys ( i mean starting in a different key, not modulating).
i think playing in a different key mainly has the effect of making a common melody stand out more, but at the same time making it harder to recognize (especially if you are doing more complicated chords with it). if i am going for a very mellow sound, i would not choose a different key.
what are other people's thoughts on this?
i think playing in a different key mainly has the effect of making a common melody stand out more, but at the same time making it harder to recognize (especially if you are doing more complicated chords with it). if i am going for a very mellow sound, i would not choose a different key.
what are other people's thoughts on this?
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to play the chord tones on the strong beats is an easy way to play safe. what the bebop jazzers did was playing on the upper extensions, like the 9th +11th 13th and so on. try playing a d pentatonic scale (d e f# a) over a cmaj7th chord (c e g b). sounds like jazz to me! think more of that the notes you play can add extensions to the chord more than fit the chord.
playing in a different key doesn't make the tune sound different at all -- except higher or lower.
and besides, you may not even know what the original key was for some of the standards you're playing.
playing in other keys - transposing - is a skill that allows you to sit in with other musicians who may want to play the tune in a particular key. it's very important if you ever want to play with a singer. they need to transpose tunes all the time.
and besides, you may not even know what the original key was for some of the standards you're playing.
playing in other keys - transposing - is a skill that allows you to sit in with other musicians who may want to play the tune in a particular key. it's very important if you ever want to play with a singer. they need to transpose tunes all the time.
playing in a different key can affect the feeling of a song because of how the low notes and high notes relate, or even because of different ways in which the sound waves interact with the body. a nightengale sang in barkley square is a beautiful song done in eb most of the time. try doing it in e. bill mays first talked about this with me. he likes to do that song in e because he thinks it makes the song "lighter", more happy, than eb.
anyway, my take on the whole thing is this: play every standard you know in every key.
why?
because it makes you a better player.
immediately erase from your mind the notion that changing keys makes a song harder to recognize. where the heck did you hear that? a melody is a melody. it all depends on how familiar you are with different keys.
if you can't play in b, then trying to play green dolphin street in b is going to be unrecognizable simply because you can't play in b.
i do something that has helped my playing immensely in the past few years. a great music master by the name of jiggs whigham talked about this and i thought it was a great idea.
pick half a dozen of your favorite standards, and include one bebop head of some kind.
pick a key.
learn the tunes in that key.
the next month, change keys and play the tunes in the new key.
there are twelve months in the year, twelve keys to go through. when i started, i picked the key of a because it was august (i even wrote a tune called "a for august" but it sucked :)
as you go through keys, you'll find that it's easier and easier to do it, plus you'll find out which keys you really enjoy playing certain songs in, giving you even more a chance to shine when you perform.
anyway, my take on the whole thing is this: play every standard you know in every key.
why?
because it makes you a better player.
immediately erase from your mind the notion that changing keys makes a song harder to recognize. where the heck did you hear that? a melody is a melody. it all depends on how familiar you are with different keys.
if you can't play in b, then trying to play green dolphin street in b is going to be unrecognizable simply because you can't play in b.
i do something that has helped my playing immensely in the past few years. a great music master by the name of jiggs whigham talked about this and i thought it was a great idea.
pick half a dozen of your favorite standards, and include one bebop head of some kind.
pick a key.
learn the tunes in that key.
the next month, change keys and play the tunes in the new key.
there are twelve months in the year, twelve keys to go through. when i started, i picked the key of a because it was august (i even wrote a tune called "a for august" but it sucked :)
as you go through keys, you'll find that it's easier and easier to do it, plus you'll find out which keys you really enjoy playing certain songs in, giving you even more a chance to shine when you perform.
If I'm not back in 24 hours, call the president.
Scot is available for skype jazz piano lessons (and google hangouts, phone call, etc...)
Use the contact link at the top of the page.
Scot is available for skype jazz piano lessons (and google hangouts, phone call, etc...)
Use the contact link at the top of the page.
by Scot Ranney on 06/20/2006, 15:29
"playing in a different key doesn't make the tune sound different at all -- except higher or lower."
false! every key has it's own character. some songs totally lose their "sound" when transposed and often sound much worse. at any rate they sound very different.
"a nightengale sang in barkley square is a beautiful song done in eb most of the time. try doing it in e. bill mays first talked about this with me. he likes to do that song in e because he thinks it makes the song "lighter", more happy, than eb."
e is a much brighter key than eb, which is more mellow, softer. so what scot mentions makes perfect sense.
different keys sound different because each of the 12 notes have their own character or "color". so for example you can have a 7th chord where the 7th is bright, the root soft etc. so it's very interesting to think about the beauty of the combinations.
in fact those who voice pianos should be aware of this!!
false! every key has it's own character. some songs totally lose their "sound" when transposed and often sound much worse. at any rate they sound very different.
"a nightengale sang in barkley square is a beautiful song done in eb most of the time. try doing it in e. bill mays first talked about this with me. he likes to do that song in e because he thinks it makes the song "lighter", more happy, than eb."
e is a much brighter key than eb, which is more mellow, softer. so what scot mentions makes perfect sense.
different keys sound different because each of the 12 notes have their own character or "color". so for example you can have a 7th chord where the 7th is bright, the root soft etc. so it's very interesting to think about the beauty of the combinations.
in fact those who voice pianos should be aware of this!!
anyone else use the freeware "functional ear trainer"? it's super! it was programmed by a musician/computer programmer. i highly recommend it. amazing what a zipfile can do for you.
that's a nice little program.
it would be cool to have a flash version that we could install on this site.
anyone a flash whiz?
it would be cool to have a flash version that we could install on this site.
anyone a flash whiz?
If I'm not back in 24 hours, call the president.
Scot is available for skype jazz piano lessons (and google hangouts, phone call, etc...)
Use the contact link at the top of the page.
Scot is available for skype jazz piano lessons (and google hangouts, phone call, etc...)
Use the contact link at the top of the page.
by Scot Ranney on 06/20/2006, 16:01
i was thinking that even people who are untrained musically will hear if you are doing a song they are very familiar with in a different key, even if they can't tell you what a key is.
my assumption about the reason some songs sound different in different keys is just because of associations we have from hearing certain songs in certain keys. i can't really imagine that it is because of something fundamental in the nature of a key. i would imagine that any song done a 1/2 step above it's standard key would sound 'brighter', and the reason we think of e as a brighter key is simply because there are so many tunes in eb and raising a 1/2 step always sounds brighter.
my assumption about the reason some songs sound different in different keys is just because of associations we have from hearing certain songs in certain keys. i can't really imagine that it is because of something fundamental in the nature of a key. i would imagine that any song done a 1/2 step above it's standard key would sound 'brighter', and the reason we think of e as a brighter key is simply because there are so many tunes in eb and raising a 1/2 step always sounds brighter.
i think that assuming non-musicians in general can tell the difference between the keys of songs that they are listening to could be a stretch.
if that were the case, you'd see music reviews of classical piano concerts where the reviewer would say things like, "it was a fabulous concert, it's just to bad that a was not at 440 and instead tuned to 444."
i've had over 4000 nights on stage and have never noticed a non-musician listener even look curious when i would play songs in non-standard keys.
that doesn't mean you're wrong or anything, it's just that through my experience i personally think that such a thing does not happen much, if at all.
i think if there's anyone looking to do some extra credit in their psych class, this would be an interesting study. play melodies, midi style so they are played exactly the same and can easily be transposed, and have people mark whether the melody is in the same key as what they are used to or not.
heck, i could do it here but you guys might skew the results :)
if that were the case, you'd see music reviews of classical piano concerts where the reviewer would say things like, "it was a fabulous concert, it's just to bad that a was not at 440 and instead tuned to 444."
i've had over 4000 nights on stage and have never noticed a non-musician listener even look curious when i would play songs in non-standard keys.
that doesn't mean you're wrong or anything, it's just that through my experience i personally think that such a thing does not happen much, if at all.
i think if there's anyone looking to do some extra credit in their psych class, this would be an interesting study. play melodies, midi style so they are played exactly the same and can easily be transposed, and have people mark whether the melody is in the same key as what they are used to or not.
heck, i could do it here but you guys might skew the results :)
If I'm not back in 24 hours, call the president.
Scot is available for skype jazz piano lessons (and google hangouts, phone call, etc...)
Use the contact link at the top of the page.
Scot is available for skype jazz piano lessons (and google hangouts, phone call, etc...)
Use the contact link at the top of the page.
by Scot Ranney on 06/20/2006, 17:37
solart, that was not actually what i meant by that. i'm well aware that different keys have different "characters". c# minor has been used often for "pathetique" tragic-sounding music. eb major is often used for heroic-sounding music. i personally think e major is a very etherial, poignant sounding key.
however, transposition does not alter the intervallic structure of a melody or make it "unrecognizable" or "more noticeable". that is just ridiculous. it's the same composition no matter what key it's transposed to.
the main reason for learning tunes in all keys is to get away from being key-dependent, and learn the real structure of the music -- which is the same in any key.
however, transposition does not alter the intervallic structure of a melody or make it "unrecognizable" or "more noticeable". that is just ridiculous. it's the same composition no matter what key it's transposed to.
the main reason for learning tunes in all keys is to get away from being key-dependent, and learn the real structure of the music -- which is the same in any key.
another point is that when playing with a bass player different keys will allow more or less use of open strings - some say that this gives a fuller sound to the bass particularly on ballads.
dave
dave
"i can't really imagine that it is because of something fundamental in the nature of a key. i would imagine that any song done a 1/2 step above it's standard key would sound 'brighter', and the reason we think of e as a brighter key is simply because there are so many tunes in eb and raising a 1/2 step always sounds brighter."
as to the first sentence: it is however the case!
as up to the comma in the second sentence: untrue! sometimes raising a song a half-step makes it more mellow, etc. such as raising one in a to bb.
as to after the comma: true, raising from eb to e always makes the tune brighter, no matter the tune.
as to the first sentence: it is however the case!
as up to the comma in the second sentence: untrue! sometimes raising a song a half-step makes it more mellow, etc. such as raising one in a to bb.
as to after the comma: true, raising from eb to e always makes the tune brighter, no matter the tune.
ic cynbad, i took you out of context.
this is an old argument, a bit like the one about perfect pitch making you a better musician...
here are my thoughts:
i don't believe different keys have intrinsically different characters.
i think we hear different keys differently because the keys are positioned higher or lower relative to our hearing range (which obviously varies from person to person).
to some people it is quite possible that e major is an 'etherial, poignant sounding key' as cynbad puts it. but to some people it will be positioned differently relative to their hearing gamut and may not be. to a blackbird or robin who is listening at the window and who has an entirely different sonic range, e might have a different character again.
as scot implies, how waveforms interact with the body also affect the emotion induced by the key. again, the interaction of waveforms with the body will vary from individual to individual. and from acoustic situation to acoustic situation.
in short, i flatly disagree that there is any intrinsic 'character' to keys. any perceived characters are the result of the filtering of sound through the particular body, hearing system and possibly also cultural sensibilities of the individual.
here are my thoughts:
i don't believe different keys have intrinsically different characters.
i think we hear different keys differently because the keys are positioned higher or lower relative to our hearing range (which obviously varies from person to person).
to some people it is quite possible that e major is an 'etherial, poignant sounding key' as cynbad puts it. but to some people it will be positioned differently relative to their hearing gamut and may not be. to a blackbird or robin who is listening at the window and who has an entirely different sonic range, e might have a different character again.
as scot implies, how waveforms interact with the body also affect the emotion induced by the key. again, the interaction of waveforms with the body will vary from individual to individual. and from acoustic situation to acoustic situation.
in short, i flatly disagree that there is any intrinsic 'character' to keys. any perceived characters are the result of the filtering of sound through the particular body, hearing system and possibly also cultural sensibilities of the individual.
i retract this bit:
"and from acoustic situation to acoustic situation."
it's true in a sense but doesn't support the point i'm making.
"and from acoustic situation to acoustic situation."
it's true in a sense but doesn't support the point i'm making.
piano paul, while our personal interpretations of the characters of different keys are just that -- personal interpretations or impressions, i believe that different keys do indeed have qualities all their own. yes, they are purely physical qualities, and we might all interpret them differently. but they are real, and that is one of the reasons people can have "perfect pitch". they hear the different tones as having different "colors" or "qualities".
while you might have to adjust your voicings if a piece of music is transposed to a drastically different key (eg. closed voiced chords get muddy if too low, or tinny if too high), there is no "personality" difference if a piece of music is transposed to a key pretty close to the "original".
karaoke singers raise or lower the keys of their songs a half-step, a whole-step, a minor third all the time and nobody's the wiser.
however, changing the pitch of a karaoke tune up or down a 5th will result in major wierdness.
while you are all entitled to your opinions that changing keys alters the personality of a piece of music that is your subjective judgement and has no bearing on the objective physical reality that changing the key of a tune does not change the relative pitch relations.
as scot suggested, open up your vanbasco program and have a friend play a midi file. then come back the next day and have the friend play the midi file again and maybe transpose it (or maybe not).
you won't be able to tell the difference unless you have perfect pitch.
karaoke singers raise or lower the keys of their songs a half-step, a whole-step, a minor third all the time and nobody's the wiser.
however, changing the pitch of a karaoke tune up or down a 5th will result in major wierdness.
while you are all entitled to your opinions that changing keys alters the personality of a piece of music that is your subjective judgement and has no bearing on the objective physical reality that changing the key of a tune does not change the relative pitch relations.
as scot suggested, open up your vanbasco program and have a friend play a midi file. then come back the next day and have the friend play the midi file again and maybe transpose it (or maybe not).
you won't be able to tell the difference unless you have perfect pitch.
"however, changing the pitch of a karaoke tune up or down a 5th will result in major weirdness."
how come? this is often exactly the interval i need order to put many songs in my vocal range.
7, have you ever changed a song from bb to b? i mean it sounds as different as night and day!
how come? this is often exactly the interval i need order to put many songs in my vocal range.
7, have you ever changed a song from bb to b? i mean it sounds as different as night and day!
as far as why i said that raising a tune a 1/2 step sounds brighter or less mellow, i think it just seems this way to me because i still have the original key stuck in my head. do people agree that modulating a tune up a 1/2 step at the end gives a "brighter" less mellow sound, or do some people maintain that its the character of a key that matters regardless of its relation to the pre-modulation key. i think for me when i raise a tune a 1/2 step from the beginning, it still sounds in my head like i have just made a modulation up a 1/2 step in the middle of a tune. i understand that unless you have just been listening to the tune in the original key, the 1/2 step change in key may not be noticeable.
7-actually i had an inkling, as to the rest 'gotcha. to me when a song is put in various keys, it sounds different each time!
"i think we hear different keys differently because the keys are positioned higher or lower relative to our hearing range (which obviously varies from person to person). [it doesn't really vary that much, (all humans except deaf ones hear the whole piano don't they?) ladies and children can hear more frequencies on the treble end. people probably hear what they hear as if the eq was set somewhat differently for each person. so you see when you set the eq the key of the piece still retains it's character respectively! with all respect hogwash!]
to some people it is quite possible that e major is an 'etherial, poignant sounding key' as cynbad puts it. but to some people it will be positioned differently relative to their hearing gamut and may not be. to a blackbird or robin who is listening at the window and who has an entirely different sonic range, e might have a different character again." [yes, but people aren't birds.]
"i think we hear different keys differently because the keys are positioned higher or lower relative to our hearing range (which obviously varies from person to person). [it doesn't really vary that much, (all humans except deaf ones hear the whole piano don't they?) ladies and children can hear more frequencies on the treble end. people probably hear what they hear as if the eq was set somewhat differently for each person. so you see when you set the eq the key of the piece still retains it's character respectively! with all respect hogwash!]
to some people it is quite possible that e major is an 'etherial, poignant sounding key' as cynbad puts it. but to some people it will be positioned differently relative to their hearing gamut and may not be. to a blackbird or robin who is listening at the window and who has an entirely different sonic range, e might have a different character again." [yes, but people aren't birds.]
"to some people it is quite possible that e major is an 'etherial, poignant sounding key'as cynbad puts it. but to some people it will be positioned differently relative to their hearing gamut and may not be."
it works along these lines; if for example a very tragic thing happened to you while a certain piece was playing in e at a young age & you're sensitive to keys you'll probably from then on associate tragedy with that key. however if something very happy & super pleasant happened to someone else with the same piece they'll associate this happy euphoric feeling or character with it. it's akin to smelling different roses & associating something with each smell, even subconsciously. but there is such a thing as a deep rose and a bright rose, a light filed (spelling correct) one, a mellow one etc.
it works along these lines; if for example a very tragic thing happened to you while a certain piece was playing in e at a young age & you're sensitive to keys you'll probably from then on associate tragedy with that key. however if something very happy & super pleasant happened to someone else with the same piece they'll associate this happy euphoric feeling or character with it. it's akin to smelling different roses & associating something with each smell, even subconsciously. but there is such a thing as a deep rose and a bright rose, a light filed (spelling correct) one, a mellow one etc.
oh for heaven's sake peeps
everyone has personal perceptions of things.
yes, different keys have different sounds. that is the very foundation of perfect pitch. how we describe them is a personal perception.
by different keys, i don't mean raising all the pitches electronically. i mean an actual tempered tuning. overtones. harmonics. etc.
everyone has personal perceptions of things.
yes, different keys have different sounds. that is the very foundation of perfect pitch. how we describe them is a personal perception.
by different keys, i don't mean raising all the pitches electronically. i mean an actual tempered tuning. overtones. harmonics. etc.
solart:
*** "i think we hear different keys differently because the keys are positioned higher or lower relative to our hearing range (which obviously varies from person to person).
[it doesn't really vary that much, (all humans except deaf ones hear the whole piano don't they?) ladies and children can hear more frequencies on the treble end. people probably hear what they hear as if the eq was set somewhat differently for each person. so you see when you set the eq the key of the piece still retains it's character respectively! with all respect hogwash!] ***
if, indeed, there are character differences between keys, the differences are evidently very subtle, as not all people agree they even exist.
so even if the hearing differences between human beings are very subtle, the shift in perceived key character could still be dramatic.
*** it works along these lines; if for example a very tragic thing happened to you while a certain piece was playing in e at a young age & you're sensitive to keys you'll probably from then on associate tragedy with that key. however if something very happy & super pleasant happened to someone else with the same piece they'll associate this happy euphoric feeling or character with it. it's akin to smelling different roses & associating something with each smell, even subconsciously. but there is such a thing as a deep rose and a bright rose, a light filed (spelling correct) one, a mellow one etc. ***
that has nothing to do with the intrinsic character of different keys, which is what we are discussing.
i have yet to hear any scientific basis for either:
1/ different keys having different characters, or
2/ perfect pitch being of any real musical value (other than during tuning up!).
i am, in fact, open-minded, but my senses have never presented me with any evidence to support the theories.
*** "i think we hear different keys differently because the keys are positioned higher or lower relative to our hearing range (which obviously varies from person to person).
[it doesn't really vary that much, (all humans except deaf ones hear the whole piano don't they?) ladies and children can hear more frequencies on the treble end. people probably hear what they hear as if the eq was set somewhat differently for each person. so you see when you set the eq the key of the piece still retains it's character respectively! with all respect hogwash!] ***
if, indeed, there are character differences between keys, the differences are evidently very subtle, as not all people agree they even exist.
so even if the hearing differences between human beings are very subtle, the shift in perceived key character could still be dramatic.
*** it works along these lines; if for example a very tragic thing happened to you while a certain piece was playing in e at a young age & you're sensitive to keys you'll probably from then on associate tragedy with that key. however if something very happy & super pleasant happened to someone else with the same piece they'll associate this happy euphoric feeling or character with it. it's akin to smelling different roses & associating something with each smell, even subconsciously. but there is such a thing as a deep rose and a bright rose, a light filed (spelling correct) one, a mellow one etc. ***
that has nothing to do with the intrinsic character of different keys, which is what we are discussing.
i have yet to hear any scientific basis for either:
1/ different keys having different characters, or
2/ perfect pitch being of any real musical value (other than during tuning up!).
i am, in fact, open-minded, but my senses have never presented me with any evidence to support the theories.
cynbad:
perhaps if there are intrinsic differences between keys, then the answer, as you suggest, lies in overtones and harmonics. does anybody know anything about the science of this?
perhaps if there are intrinsic differences between keys, then the answer, as you suggest, lies in overtones and harmonics. does anybody know anything about the science of this?
"perfect pitch being of any real musical value (other than during tuning up!)."
https://www.perfectpitchpeople.com/links/
https://www.perfectpitchpeople.com/links/
another point - real-life piano players aren't going to play songs exactly the same when they change keys. everyone has favorite - or more comfortable - voicings for different keys.
logic and theory aside - e is an etherial and poignant sounding key. unless you're duoing with electric guitar.
logic and theory aside - e is an etherial and poignant sounding key. unless you're duoing with electric guitar.
perfect pitch intrigues me. like most musicians i have good relative pitch, but need a starting point.
do perfect pitch people recognize tempering, or are they bothered by stretch tuning ?
do perfect pitch people recognize tempering, or are they bothered by stretch tuning ?
solart, your argument makes it sound like you have perfect pitch. i tend to follow 7's logic here. i don't think i could tell the quality of the tones from shifting a half step if you had started with an e vs. an eb (i.e. don't change keys in my presence).
now if you're telling that the voicing impacts on the sound, yes, i will agree with that, based on muddy/tinny per 7.
i'm sure someone with perfect pitch will react to the actual pitch. on the guitar, i may tune the guitar slightly higher or lower and it makes no difference to me (other than the pressure on the strings). no difference to my ear. but i don't have perfect pitch.
now if you're telling that the voicing impacts on the sound, yes, i will agree with that, based on muddy/tinny per 7.
i'm sure someone with perfect pitch will react to the actual pitch. on the guitar, i may tune the guitar slightly higher or lower and it makes no difference to me (other than the pressure on the strings). no difference to my ear. but i don't have perfect pitch.
the "science" behind all of this is that different frequencies, and different combinations of those frequencies, have their own unique characteristics. the rest is personal interpretation and has nothing to do with logic or science. and it doesn't have to.
somehow, we can recognize an f major chord and not actually know it's an f major chord. not consciously. but somehow, the brain can recognize it. yes, there is a logical and scientific basis for it. maybe we just can't explain it yet.
if i think of e major as sounding "etherial", that is my own personal interpretation of those frequencies that my brain actually distinguished. not everything needs to be science and logic. music is an art. if you want to be nothing more than a computer, give up now.
somehow, we can recognize an f major chord and not actually know it's an f major chord. not consciously. but somehow, the brain can recognize it. yes, there is a logical and scientific basis for it. maybe we just can't explain it yet.
if i think of e major as sounding "etherial", that is my own personal interpretation of those frequencies that my brain actually distinguished. not everything needs to be science and logic. music is an art. if you want to be nothing more than a computer, give up now.
are you also gifted with perfect pitch cynbad? i cannot detect what you say. i can easily duplicate that by transposing the entire keyboard a half step up or down.
you are assuming we can all hear that in your statement. i'm gifted with very good relative pitch. i can memorize a note and come to the keyboard and get to the note within a half step or a whole step. that's the limit of my ability to recognize the "actual" pitch.
thus being so deficient in this arena, i clearly cannot tell the difference in quality by a half step. now admitedly i don't have a nice grand piano around to compare timbre and other technical characteristics so maybe what you're describing relates to the qualities of a good acoustic.
you are assuming we can all hear that in your statement. i'm gifted with very good relative pitch. i can memorize a note and come to the keyboard and get to the note within a half step or a whole step. that's the limit of my ability to recognize the "actual" pitch.
thus being so deficient in this arena, i clearly cannot tell the difference in quality by a half step. now admitedly i don't have a nice grand piano around to compare timbre and other technical characteristics so maybe what you're describing relates to the qualities of a good acoustic.
i'm more like a perfect pitch student, 'been messing with it for years. i can do it slowly, one note at a time, like in a test. however i can't do it fast enough to be of any practical value yet. maybe some day.
i've experienced it many times with other musicians that when the song is transposed like for singers or to make it easier for the guitar player that band members comment about how the original key was more beautiful etc. i'm sure many ljp members have had similar. speak up!
i've experienced it many times with other musicians that when the song is transposed like for singers or to make it easier for the guitar player that band members comment about how the original key was more beautiful etc. i'm sure many ljp members have had similar. speak up!
at what point do you consider the "personality" begins to change?
in many parts of the world there still exist other "tuning standards" (such as a=438, a=442, etc.)
does a difference as small as two cents (which is so small as to be almost impossible for ordinary mortals to discern) give a "different personality".
or does that "different personality" only become evident at larger (discernible) differences such as a quarter-tone (50 cents)?
quarter tones are certainly discernible, and are extremely commonly used in many non-occidental musics.
or does the personality change only become evident at 100 cents (a half-step)?
if the personality change occurs at less than a quarter tone, then a guitar that is only sightly detuned from 440 (yet completely in tune with itself) would consequently have a completely different "personality" than one that is tuned exactly to 440.
if the above seems ridiculous, believe me that is my intent.
in many parts of the world there still exist other "tuning standards" (such as a=438, a=442, etc.)
does a difference as small as two cents (which is so small as to be almost impossible for ordinary mortals to discern) give a "different personality".
or does that "different personality" only become evident at larger (discernible) differences such as a quarter-tone (50 cents)?
quarter tones are certainly discernible, and are extremely commonly used in many non-occidental musics.
or does the personality change only become evident at 100 cents (a half-step)?
if the personality change occurs at less than a quarter tone, then a guitar that is only sightly detuned from 440 (yet completely in tune with itself) would consequently have a completely different "personality" than one that is tuned exactly to 440.
if the above seems ridiculous, believe me that is my intent.
i hear ya 7. especially for a guitar player like myself, with no access to a piano to confirm what an e is, i have no idea how close or how far i am from the proper a440 pitch when i tune the guitar. so maybe guitar playing has ruined my ability to detect this sound personality.
i have strange type of "perfect" pitch. i can remember the key a song is in even if it's been a long time since i've listened to or thought about it. so stairway to heaven starts on an a, so i could find an a without any assistance. then from there, with a little thought, i can find all the rest of the pitches.
a practical example is hearing someone tuning a guitar. i've heard guitars being tuned so many times, that i remember what pitches all the strings should be, so even if they're in tune relative to each other, i can still notice of the low e isn't quite right.
a practical example is hearing someone tuning a guitar. i've heard guitars being tuned so many times, that i remember what pitches all the strings should be, so even if they're in tune relative to each other, i can still notice of the low e isn't quite right.
believe me, 7, you don't even have to try.
ah, ken, thank you for that.
ho ho!
so we're down to the physical properties of the piano then. this means the concept of changing keys to alter the color of the music would not be applicable to guitar or electronic keyboards. correct?
well no wonder i wouldn't know this. i hardly touch my upright as it does not sound as good as my keyboard.
well no wonder i wouldn't know this. i hardly touch my upright as it does not sound as good as my keyboard.
ken, that is interesting.
however on the subject of keys having intrinsic personality differences, which is what we are discussing, or at least what i hope we are discussing, it doesn't prove anything.
on a particular instrument (be it a piano, guitar, trumpet or whatever), a certain key might sound happy, due to the physical characteristics of that instrument. on a different instrument, with a different set of physical characteristics, it might take on a different character. therefore it is not the keys that have the characters - the character is something that imposed opun keys by particular instruments, and acoustic situations. this is quite different!!!
perhaps it is true, for instance, that an average-sized orchestra, in an acoustically average concert hall, playing in e major, will produce an etherial, poignant sound.
but for johnny, with his vocal range, singing in the shower, e might be more a key for military marches(!)
this is my general understanding, unless anybody has some science that disproves it??? i want to hear some maths here!!! of course music is an art, but the nature of sound is hard mathematics, no question about that... and like i say, i am open-minded, but i just haven't heard any valid proof whatsoever... yet.
overtones and harmonics... i don't know much about this, but thinking about it, i imagine they vary from instrument to instrument too, and so are not anything to do with the science of pure, unadulterated, pitch. so they probably wouldn't help explain either.
however on the subject of keys having intrinsic personality differences, which is what we are discussing, or at least what i hope we are discussing, it doesn't prove anything.
on a particular instrument (be it a piano, guitar, trumpet or whatever), a certain key might sound happy, due to the physical characteristics of that instrument. on a different instrument, with a different set of physical characteristics, it might take on a different character. therefore it is not the keys that have the characters - the character is something that imposed opun keys by particular instruments, and acoustic situations. this is quite different!!!
perhaps it is true, for instance, that an average-sized orchestra, in an acoustically average concert hall, playing in e major, will produce an etherial, poignant sound.
but for johnny, with his vocal range, singing in the shower, e might be more a key for military marches(!)
this is my general understanding, unless anybody has some science that disproves it??? i want to hear some maths here!!! of course music is an art, but the nature of sound is hard mathematics, no question about that... and like i say, i am open-minded, but i just haven't heard any valid proof whatsoever... yet.
overtones and harmonics... i don't know much about this, but thinking about it, i imagine they vary from instrument to instrument too, and so are not anything to do with the science of pure, unadulterated, pitch. so they probably wouldn't help explain either.
please excuse my typing errors!
"so we're down to the physical properties of the piano then. this means the concept of changing keys to alter the color of the music would not be applicable to guitar or electronic keyboards. correct?"
incorrect. people who acquire perfect pitch are first able to do so mainly on their own intstrument, but this carries over to all instruments with time. i find that strings (violins, cellos, etc.) have a similar "recognition quality" as the piano, be they real or sampled/synthesized.
incorrect. people who acquire perfect pitch are first able to do so mainly on their own intstrument, but this carries over to all instruments with time. i find that strings (violins, cellos, etc.) have a similar "recognition quality" as the piano, be they real or sampled/synthesized.
keys do have intrinsic personality differences, otherwise no one would have perfect pitch, and people obviously do. you may be surprised to know that many famous musicians and singers have perfect pitch; and i'm sure this helped bigtime with the reason they're so good.
anyone play "moonlight sonata" by beethoven, the famous beautiful movement in c#m? just play a few bars transposed to cm, and if you listen closely, you may hear the obvious difference if you earnestly try.
anyone play "moonlight sonata" by beethoven, the famous beautiful movement in c#m? just play a few bars transposed to cm, and if you listen closely, you may hear the obvious difference if you earnestly try.
what key i play tunes in mainly just has an effect on how thirsty i get.
when i first started playing i played most tunes in c g or f. and i didnt get that thirsty. but now i play a lot in bb eb gb and all the other keys, boy im allways thirsty now... i dont know whats up with that... i just know thats what happened.
when i first started playing i played most tunes in c g or f. and i didnt get that thirsty. but now i play a lot in bb eb gb and all the other keys, boy im allways thirsty now... i dont know whats up with that... i just know thats what happened.
there is a big difference between recognizing that people can have perfect pitch and saying that different keys have different characters. we are talking about different emotional impressions, which is different than perfect pitch.
this could easily be tested scientifically by doing what scott suggested of playing many songs on a keyboard in different keys, except instead of asking people if the song is in the correct key, ask them to give an impression of the quality of the song (is it "bright", "sad", etc...). obviously, people will be influenced by the nature of the song, so you might instead take a sad song and see if it sounds sadder in c#minor etc...
i am afraid this would be the only way this question could be settled for me, since i can't hear these natures of keys myself.
this could easily be tested scientifically by doing what scott suggested of playing many songs on a keyboard in different keys, except instead of asking people if the song is in the correct key, ask them to give an impression of the quality of the song (is it "bright", "sad", etc...). obviously, people will be influenced by the nature of the song, so you might instead take a sad song and see if it sounds sadder in c#minor etc...
i am afraid this would be the only way this question could be settled for me, since i can't hear these natures of keys myself.
solart, obviously those who have perfect pitch can feel those personality differences like you say. in another forum some perfect pitch people spoke up and said that. but to relate this key "personality" to the general public does not work since most of us don't have that capability (as evidenced by these posts). the physical characteristics of overtones on the piano would of course be absent on my digital so i'm not going to hear it there either.
so changing keys may have some effect on some very small minority. the rest of us wouldn't know better. ;-)
so changing keys may have some effect on some very small minority. the rest of us wouldn't know better. ;-)
i can't believe the stuff you peeps debate for pages and pages.
stuff that doesn't even matter.
it's time to
shut up and play!
stuff that doesn't even matter.
it's time to
shut up and play!
oh we do that already cynbad. we've just got to occupy our time away from the keyboard with nonsense dribble right (as long as it is music related)?
assigning an atrribute to a certain key with statements such as "the key of e is bright, whereas the key of eb is moody and introspective" - or whatever, must then be applicable across the board in that all instruments tubas, cellos, timpani, accordions and kazoos would all have to sound "bright" when playing in concert e.
if the point is that timbral quality changes occur due to moving to another set of notes, this is certainly plausible for each individual instrument.
however, applying a universal umbrella concept as "c#m is pathetic" or "bb is blue with shades of green" across the board to any given tonal center breaks down under close scrutiny.
"digitally altering these recordings of real instruments to transpose them a step or two away from the original does nothing to change the "personality" of the song."
oh yes it does! of course the words stay the same...
oh yes it does! of course the words stay the same...
7, any such "description" of a key's "character" is purely a personal impression, and is also based on the nature of the composition.
give it a rest already.
i was the one who first said it made no difference what key one played a standard in.
give it a rest already.
i was the one who first said it made no difference what key one played a standard in.
btw, it was not *i* who came up with these key characterizations of "heroic", "pathetic", etc.
these are well-known patterns of usage of certain keys by composers such as beethoven, rachmaninov, scriabin, etc.
just look at the literature. maybe you don't hear any difference, hell, maybe i don't either. but apparently these composers did.
these are well-known patterns of usage of certain keys by composers such as beethoven, rachmaninov, scriabin, etc.
just look at the literature. maybe you don't hear any difference, hell, maybe i don't either. but apparently these composers did.
hey, 7, when you were at cu did you have to endure the duckworth method of "feeling the color blue"?
guy duckworth headed up the "class piano" department. it was his own weird method. he had disciples working with him.
everyone was required to take "piano class". i started there fall of 1978.
everyone was required to take "piano class". i started there fall of 1978.
oh, wait. does dc mean denver campus?
nevermind.
i was in boulder, wearing india skirts and chinese shoes.
and eating hummus bagels and drinking chai.
nevermind.
i was in boulder, wearing india skirts and chinese shoes.
and eating hummus bagels and drinking chai.
i think you guys are getting into synaesthesia now.
cynbad, those key associations are most definitely a matter of convention, as you point out. why else would such a stir have been made circa the turn of the last century over the subversion of such "true" pairings such as b minor=[whatever the hell, goes back to bach, i won't dignify it with a name] and c# minor -- scriabin wrote at least one piece in c# which defies the (young) tradition already.
i never thought the issue was really of much interest -- clearly, absolute pitch is a desideratum if one is a musician, but just as certainly, one's pitch is only as good as the training one may have received during those critical years. choosing between a battle-ax of a mother with an impeccable (clean) pitch-pipe and a parlor piano tuned 1/2-step below, it doesn't seem reasonable to choose the path of least humanity, were one able to choose during those formative years.
i never thought the issue was really of much interest -- clearly, absolute pitch is a desideratum if one is a musician, but just as certainly, one's pitch is only as good as the training one may have received during those critical years. choosing between a battle-ax of a mother with an impeccable (clean) pitch-pipe and a parlor piano tuned 1/2-step below, it doesn't seem reasonable to choose the path of least humanity, were one able to choose during those formative years.
boy jaledin, i'll have to check a dictionary. "desideratum". must be latin.
it just means something which is/was desired. i think it's the perfect passive participle of desidero, but i can't remember for sure. something of a cliche, though.
all i can say is, i feel sorry for yous guys who can't hear the etherial, shimmering, poignant quality of the key of e major.
;-)
;-)
in 1978 i was based in paris, france playing guitar for a touring irish folk group.
the first time i ever tasted hummus was in b'scharre, lebanon (birthplace of khalil gibran). it was love at first bite.
even while in india, i did not wear indian skirts (although i did wear a sarong while in thailand).
the first time i ever tasted hummus was in b'scharre, lebanon (birthplace of khalil gibran). it was love at first bite.
even while in india, i did not wear indian skirts (although i did wear a sarong while in thailand).
just think, 7, you could have done most of that stuff a lot cheaper without ever leaving boulder!
;-)
;-)
<i>"in 1978 i was based in paris, france playing guitar for a touring irish folk group."</i>
great introduction.
great introduction.
that could be the opening line of his autobiography.
sounds like another "bad boy of music" might be in the works.
sounds like another "bad boy of music" might be in the works.
if you've never read that book, you should. george antheil. it's hilarious.
didn't bach etc. use a different system of temperment? i'm certainly no expert on these sorts of things, but from what i understand, unless you use "equal temperment" (the kind that is standard today), changing keys will, in fact, result in different musical characteristics. so today, it might make sense that you can go from key to key without any noticable change, but "back in the day", the classical artists would have been justified in saying one key was "brighter" or "greener" than another.
equal temperment really started digging in when bach was doing his thing. he wrote that book of preludes and fugues for the "well tempered clavier". one of the first major pieces to take advantage of the fact that with a well tempered clavier (by tuning the fifths just a little bit off) you could play stuff in every key without the problems that equal temperement caused. instead of playing in four or five keys, you could play in all twelve.
i wonder if equal temperement would have gotten such a huge following had not bach written for it? i'm not a classical historian or anything, i just barely remember what first year college music analysis trying to teach me.
i wonder if equal temperement would have gotten such a huge following had not bach written for it? i'm not a classical historian or anything, i just barely remember what first year college music analysis trying to teach me.
If I'm not back in 24 hours, call the president.
Scot is available for skype jazz piano lessons (and google hangouts, phone call, etc...)
Use the contact link at the top of the page.
Scot is available for skype jazz piano lessons (and google hangouts, phone call, etc...)
Use the contact link at the top of the page.
by Scot Ranney on 06/26/2006, 13:53
somebody else would've sooner or later.
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