Excercises for hand independency?
i was talking to harry pickens, and one of his suggestions for me was to make a list of the things in your playing you wanted to work on and rate them. for me, one of the ones at the top of my list was hand independency.
i have never been able to come up with a good practice regiment for this. i've tried hand seperate, hands together practices, but that didn't help as much as i thought it would. i've also tried working on specific rhythms at a time, and while it was somewhat effective, i felt it was random and slightly inefficient. a lot of the books and material out there don't talk about this too much. anyone here have good suggestions of things that have worked for them? thanks.
i have never been able to come up with a good practice regiment for this. i've tried hand seperate, hands together practices, but that didn't help as much as i thought it would. i've also tried working on specific rhythms at a time, and while it was somewhat effective, i felt it was random and slightly inefficient. a lot of the books and material out there don't talk about this too much. anyone here have good suggestions of things that have worked for them? thanks.
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i'm just curious, what's your goal for hand independence? for example do you want to play walking bass lines and solo?
you must think of it as interdependency.
much the same as driving a car with a stick shift.
the feet and hands all perform different functions at different times, yet they are are related to achieving the same goal.
also you must force yourself to do it. it doesn't become a natural reflex without a good deal of practice.
much the same as driving a car with a stick shift.
the feet and hands all perform different functions at different times, yet they are are related to achieving the same goal.
also you must force yourself to do it. it doesn't become a natural reflex without a good deal of practice.
interdependency...now i'm a little more confused. but i kind of get your point. let's take the example of walking bass lines and boogie patterns (or stride for that matter); for these patterns (i think) you would want the hands to behave independently because the left will hand will be playing a constant beat that you don't want your brain screwing up by concentrating on your right hand melody.
now, for other styles like comping in a trio, i can see more of hand interdependency there. here, it the interaction of the two hands would be more tied together, like one hand responding to the other. in general, i have less of a problem with this than i do with what i described above concerning the walking bass and boogie patterns.
paul, to answer your question, my goal is just general improvement in hand independency. i just want to know if you guys have effective methods of working on this.
now, for other styles like comping in a trio, i can see more of hand interdependency there. here, it the interaction of the two hands would be more tied together, like one hand responding to the other. in general, i have less of a problem with this than i do with what i described above concerning the walking bass and boogie patterns.
paul, to answer your question, my goal is just general improvement in hand independency. i just want to know if you guys have effective methods of working on this.
bach
yes, bach will do it! however, it takes years to master the art of playing the fugue -- i still can't play many of the fugues in "the well-tempered clavier" (either book). i'd bet most pianists can't tackle those ones at a high level, either. there's still a lot to be gained by starting with simpler bach pieces (the inventions, sinfonia, some of the partitas and suites, etc.) it's a labor of love that doesn't translate directly to jazz, though, imo.
i used to practice ostinato lh patterns by doubling them in octaves in the lh -- it seemed to reinforce the general idea. it just seemed to work for me. also taking, for example, bossa lh lines from organists and playing them verbatim -- again and again -- while stumbling and falling while trying to improvise -- or even to play the melody. think "shadow of your smile" or "recorda me" -- big john patton was very very good at this kind of thing.
i used to practice ostinato lh patterns by doubling them in octaves in the lh -- it seemed to reinforce the general idea. it just seemed to work for me. also taking, for example, bossa lh lines from organists and playing them verbatim -- again and again -- while stumbling and falling while trying to improvise -- or even to play the melody. think "shadow of your smile" or "recorda me" -- big john patton was very very good at this kind of thing.
i'd rather not have to play bach to do this. aren't there jazz specific excercises that address walking bass, boogie patterns, blues swing patterns, etc.?
jaledin, if i'm understanding you correctly, you recommend just trying it again and again until i get it. that's what i've been doing so far. i try to play a pattern i've heard and practice it until i'm able to imrpovise with the rh and do the bass pattern with my lh. but it's hard work and takes a long time. the reason why i asked here is because i've read several different things about practicing stuff hands together vs hands separately. i just wish there was a faster way. this particular area has been the most difficult for me to develop, i don't know if that's a common experience for most of you. i would call it my most glaring weakpoint. the most difficult to overcome, at least.
jaledin, if i'm understanding you correctly, you recommend just trying it again and again until i get it. that's what i've been doing so far. i try to play a pattern i've heard and practice it until i'm able to imrpovise with the rh and do the bass pattern with my lh. but it's hard work and takes a long time. the reason why i asked here is because i've read several different things about practicing stuff hands together vs hands separately. i just wish there was a faster way. this particular area has been the most difficult for me to develop, i don't know if that's a common experience for most of you. i would call it my most glaring weakpoint. the most difficult to overcome, at least.
yep - aint no shortcuts:)
you might try some pischna exercises...
yes, it's a "common experience," superboy, for everyone. i only know the way of perseverance -- maybe the pischna exercises would help, i don't know. it seems to me, though, that the best way to learn is by doing what you want to do, even if it's at a very slow speed. this doesn't seem to be a task which could result in injury (like playing concert repertoire with internal trills and fast scales and the rest) -- i don't know that there is a shortcut. you might however cut short the amount of time wasted in your practice regimen by simply practicing by rote what it *exactly* is you wish to accomplish. you might try working up "un poco loco," of which there are some printed transcriptions, if you don't want to explore bach -- it will probably take a while, but it could be *worth* your while. i'm speaking as someone who never mastered that tune (like 99% of jazz pianists, probably), but it's a nice goal to set for yourself. or hampton hawes's version of "la carioca," also with a latin ostinato bass.
ain't no magic pill, my friend, in my experience.
ain't no magic pill, my friend, in my experience.
instead of improvising right off the bat, try playing a set lick or melody in the right hand, which will make you work on the coordination of the hands without the added pressure of creating an interesting improvisation.
also, as jaledin mentioned, you may have to slow it down a lot before you can get it. reduce it down to a 1-2 bar chunk, and practice it very slowly in both hands (after prior hands separate practice of course). i suggest suspending time altogether at first so you can get the "feel" down.
it might take a while, but once you get it down, you'd be surprised at how even the most complex things can become automatic with practice.
also, as jaledin mentioned, you may have to slow it down a lot before you can get it. reduce it down to a 1-2 bar chunk, and practice it very slowly in both hands (after prior hands separate practice of course). i suggest suspending time altogether at first so you can get the "feel" down.
it might take a while, but once you get it down, you'd be surprised at how even the most complex things can become automatic with practice.
one way to approach this problem is to decide on a set lh accompaniment and stick with it. the lh is often repetitive and relatively simple both rhythmically and harmonically.
by having a set lh "arrangement" that is ingrained to the point of automatic reflex, you can free up your rh to take flight.
iow put only 5% of your brain into your lh so you can put 95% of your brain into you rh.
if you expect to improvise a lh walking bass line (or something like stride figures with the lh) while simultaneously improvising with the rh, that will take decades of practice and performance and at that point you will be in league with the grand masters of piano.
you have to crawl before you can walk, and you have to walk before you can run.
by having a set lh "arrangement" that is ingrained to the point of automatic reflex, you can free up your rh to take flight.
iow put only 5% of your brain into your lh so you can put 95% of your brain into you rh.
if you expect to improvise a lh walking bass line (or something like stride figures with the lh) while simultaneously improvising with the rh, that will take decades of practice and performance and at that point you will be in league with the grand masters of piano.
you have to crawl before you can walk, and you have to walk before you can run.
yep bach is the answer. and you know i finally boged down and learned all the bach i had to when i found just how important the hand independence is. i am not much of a drinker anymore but when my pianist career began you learn quickly that there is a lot of free booze to be had while playing the pianoforte. well you gotta be able to pick up that drink with one hand quickly take a chug and seemlessly start playing again while the other hand covers both hands parts. well i could give a work shop here on how to work on your drinking skills while playing the pianoforte but i think you may have to wait for the book. but i will let you in on the a bit of a secret right now ... many of the greatest pianists in history developed there amazing techniques while trying to figure out how to consume alcohol and keep playing their partsat the same time.
glad you brought that up dr. mike. i realize i developed a lot of hand independence on the way to and from gigs. i spent a lot of quality time driving a manual transmission with a burrito in one hand and a beer in the other. - made playing bach and pischna a lot easier...
i know mike is (sort of) kidding around, but somebody like fats waller (as if there's anyone like him or ever was) did exactly the same thing as mike describes. i bet you a million bucks he didn't do any exercises when he was a lad -- i also bet you a million bucks (which i don't have, so take credit) he could *certainly* swing in lh while taking the bottle in his right.
of course, it killed him *very* young (he wasn't even forty when he died, right?). but that's the way people used to learn it -- over and over again.
i don't agree with 7 that just playing a single-note walking bass, even with "stumbles" and grace notes and all that good stuff takes decades. jimmy smith and most of the others (mcgriff, mcduff, patterson, patton) learned their lh single-note bass stuff in a year or maybe two at most -- it's just a matter of persevering through the initial awkward stages and getting the notion that there *will* be set patterns or blocks of notes that will occur. *nobody's* lh when walking is going to sound like chuck rainey or sam jones in terms of invention -- it's more a feel/rhythmic thing.
for the ostinato stuff, that's already been addressed by a number of people -- and most cats i know who are better than me, i.e., *very* fluent on "pianoforte" technique (pace mike) still have to practice tricky ostinati (?) pretty hard to get it right.
of course, it killed him *very* young (he wasn't even forty when he died, right?). but that's the way people used to learn it -- over and over again.
i don't agree with 7 that just playing a single-note walking bass, even with "stumbles" and grace notes and all that good stuff takes decades. jimmy smith and most of the others (mcgriff, mcduff, patterson, patton) learned their lh single-note bass stuff in a year or maybe two at most -- it's just a matter of persevering through the initial awkward stages and getting the notion that there *will* be set patterns or blocks of notes that will occur. *nobody's* lh when walking is going to sound like chuck rainey or sam jones in terms of invention -- it's more a feel/rhythmic thing.
for the ostinato stuff, that's already been addressed by a number of people -- and most cats i know who are better than me, i.e., *very* fluent on "pianoforte" technique (pace mike) still have to practice tricky ostinati (?) pretty hard to get it right.
i am working on "song for my father" by horace silver. that is a good rh/lh piece imho.
there's a great recording by richard "groove" holmes on "soul message" of that tune -- lh bass on the organ in a trio setting. it's the same recording which has one of the few hip versions of "misty" out there.
great discussion here guys, thanks. i think what i'll do is pick a handful of patterns that are the most important to me, start off very slow, and work on it until it's automatic. maybe, just maybe, i'll go check out bach, but i remember playing all the inventions as a kid and i hated it.
bass line and jamming over that in the rh is not too tough at all.
however, putting together a bass line that is truly improvised while also improvising a hot right hand solo is pretty hard to do.
but if you have managed to master that skill in less time than it usually takes the rest of us ordinary mortals, my hat is off to you.
however, putting together a bass line that is truly improvised while also improvising a hot right hand solo is pretty hard to do.
but if you have managed to master that skill in less time than it usually takes the rest of us ordinary mortals, my hat is off to you.
"i'd rather not have to play bach to do this. aren't there jazz specific excercises that address walking bass, boogie patterns, blues swing patterns, etc.?"
this just was on the forum last week or something...........
https://www.learnjazzpiano.com/citadel/scotcit.mvc?intro_off=1&action=forum&sub=display_thread&id=37445&bid=37615&room_id=1
this just was on the forum last week or something...........
https://www.learnjazzpiano.com/citadel/scotcit.mvc?intro_off=1&action=forum&sub=display_thread&id=37445&bid=37615&room_id=1
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