First Lesson
this one goes specifically to the teachers but others can play as well.
let's assume you have a new student. he's a beginner and knows very little. he knows how to construct chords, he read a few books so he gets a few concepts (for example he read the levine). of course, he can't apply any of it. he probably knows a few licks and that's it.
he's an adult, he's determined (it's his first lesson) and he wants to play from leadsheets just like the big boys do.
so, the question.
what would be the topic for the first lesson. what -- to you -- are some of the most important foundations. which approach do you take?
for example, do you say any of the following:
- you must know major and minor triads and all inversions.
- you must know your major scales
- you have to learn how to read and play the melodies from leadsheets
- learn your two fives inside out.
- just pick a few tunes and apply the 2+2 method (or other)
- play twinkle twinkle in 12 keys
i'm trying to figure out the foundation you think one should have before we move to other things.
i have the feeling many students can't help but jump to complex stuff without even knowing their major triads well. we read everywhere on how important certain things are, how they are assumed. it's very difficult for students to not be overwhelmed and make out what's really important at their level.
it becomes clearer as the student advances, but i figure many do not because of the huge amount of information presented to them.
let's assume you have a new student. he's a beginner and knows very little. he knows how to construct chords, he read a few books so he gets a few concepts (for example he read the levine). of course, he can't apply any of it. he probably knows a few licks and that's it.
he's an adult, he's determined (it's his first lesson) and he wants to play from leadsheets just like the big boys do.
so, the question.
what would be the topic for the first lesson. what -- to you -- are some of the most important foundations. which approach do you take?
for example, do you say any of the following:
- you must know major and minor triads and all inversions.
- you must know your major scales
- you have to learn how to read and play the melodies from leadsheets
- learn your two fives inside out.
- just pick a few tunes and apply the 2+2 method (or other)
- play twinkle twinkle in 12 keys
i'm trying to figure out the foundation you think one should have before we move to other things.
i have the feeling many students can't help but jump to complex stuff without even knowing their major triads well. we read everywhere on how important certain things are, how they are assumed. it's very difficult for students to not be overwhelmed and make out what's really important at their level.
it becomes clearer as the student advances, but i figure many do not because of the huge amount of information presented to them.
There are 44 comments, leave a comment.
i would tell the guy to buy some red garland trio albums.
garland has a fairly comprehensive way of left hand voicings and his right hand lines are also pretty easy to transcribe.this way a beginning student can get a feeling of a really prof. jazz musican sounds like and in same time realize that he can learn some of the same stuff as well.
nihonjin
garland has a fairly comprehensive way of left hand voicings and his right hand lines are also pretty easy to transcribe.this way a beginning student can get a feeling of a really prof. jazz musican sounds like and in same time realize that he can learn some of the same stuff as well.
nihonjin
the topic of the first lesson should be; "what can you play?"
or "what do you want to play?"
or "what do you want to play?"
"what do you want to play?"
every student is different and each will need an individualized approach to a certain degree. all of the basics you mention are important, but not necessarily in any particular order imo. i always try to build on one's accomplishments and focus on goals.
every student is different and each will need an individualized approach to a certain degree. all of the basics you mention are important, but not necessarily in any particular order imo. i always try to build on one's accomplishments and focus on goals.
goals = students interests
all i do on the first lesson is ask them to play a tune, and if they don't know a tune, then we start working on a tune. everything i do in a lesson is based of learning tunes and if they don't know anything, i usually start with something like autumn leaves or softly as in a morning sunrise, simple with chords.
if student is deficient in skills or knowledge, i work that in. say he has trouble with the 2-5-1 chord progressions, then i give him the 251 scale exercise to practice. if he doesn't know diminished stuff and it's time he does, i work it into one of the tunes he's learning.
of course i don't do much teaching these days, can't stand those students who come in and practice on my time, even if i do charge an arm and a leg, i could be doing something more constructive.
if student is deficient in skills or knowledge, i work that in. say he has trouble with the 2-5-1 chord progressions, then i give him the 251 scale exercise to practice. if he doesn't know diminished stuff and it's time he does, i work it into one of the tunes he's learning.
of course i don't do much teaching these days, can't stand those students who come in and practice on my time, even if i do charge an arm and a leg, i could be doing something more constructive.
If I'm not back in 24 hours, call the president.
Scot is available for skype jazz piano lessons (and google hangouts, phone call, etc...)
Use the contact link at the top of the page.
Scot is available for skype jazz piano lessons (and google hangouts, phone call, etc...)
Use the contact link at the top of the page.
by Scot Ranney on 02/12/2008, 18:50
i was that guy, having started piano at 26, and at the time being a good drummer with some basic guitar chops (and thus general music knowledge, and an understandin of what it took to learn an instrument). i took few traditional 'classical' lessons, and then went to a jazz pino teacher, who pretty much started as you suggested:
- you must know major and minor triads and all inversions.
- you must know your major scales
- you have to learn how to read and play the melodies from leadsheets
- learn your two fives inside out.
it all worked out pretty well.
- you must know major and minor triads and all inversions.
- you must know your major scales
- you have to learn how to read and play the melodies from leadsheets
- learn your two fives inside out.
it all worked out pretty well.
learning ii-v-i (major and minor) isnt' a bad idea. i spent a lot of time mastering them (almost a whole year), left hand alone and two-hands comping...
that goes well with standards (autumn leaves, stella, miss jones, all the things, etc...). and i tought i was great...
the first song in the valerio book (in search of lost time) goes like this:
am7-bb7-ebmaj7-d7...
wonderful progession but i didn't know how to voice the second chord (bb7) out of the context of a ii-v-i...!!!
i knew then that i have more homeworks to do!! lol
that goes well with standards (autumn leaves, stella, miss jones, all the things, etc...). and i tought i was great...
the first song in the valerio book (in search of lost time) goes like this:
am7-bb7-ebmaj7-d7...
wonderful progession but i didn't know how to voice the second chord (bb7) out of the context of a ii-v-i...!!!
i knew then that i have more homeworks to do!! lol
an adult who knows how to construct chords, has read levine, and knows a few licks hardly strikes me as a beginner.
i always subscribe to wynton marsalis' affirmation that "in order to learn jazz you have to have mastered the blues".
many relatively advanced students have what is called "swiss cheese knowledge" iow they have a relative mastery of certain high level concepts yet lack certain basics.
the teacher's initial aim with learners of this kind must be to "fill in the blanks". the difficulty lies in determining which of the basics the student lacks (and not piss them off by taking them back to square one to do so).
i base much of my detective work in this area to the the student's ability to "feel", "groove" and phrase.
as such, i start out checking their command of the blues in the main blues keys (not all twelve keys). if the student has the knack for creating cool lines and has good rhythmic feel in the blues idiom, then we move will directly into the fundamentals of jazz.
however, if the student is stiff, klutzy or dim then we will concentrate on phrasing and emotion in the blues idiom for as long as it takes (because if they can't play the blues with soul, ain't no way they're going to be able to play jazz with soul).
i always subscribe to wynton marsalis' affirmation that "in order to learn jazz you have to have mastered the blues".
many relatively advanced students have what is called "swiss cheese knowledge" iow they have a relative mastery of certain high level concepts yet lack certain basics.
the teacher's initial aim with learners of this kind must be to "fill in the blanks". the difficulty lies in determining which of the basics the student lacks (and not piss them off by taking them back to square one to do so).
i base much of my detective work in this area to the the student's ability to "feel", "groove" and phrase.
as such, i start out checking their command of the blues in the main blues keys (not all twelve keys). if the student has the knack for creating cool lines and has good rhythmic feel in the blues idiom, then we move will directly into the fundamentals of jazz.
however, if the student is stiff, klutzy or dim then we will concentrate on phrasing and emotion in the blues idiom for as long as it takes (because if they can't play the blues with soul, ain't no way they're going to be able to play jazz with soul).
i really like what 7 is saying being a primarly self taught pianist. i've not transcribed whole solos, and have a decent ear (due mainly to being a singer for years). so i picked up improvising at advanced level pretty easy, but the one thing i lack is the ability to sight read from the real book. i have to get recordings of the songs and learn them. while my mental library isn't huge, i can say i wish that the teacher that i got with emphasized a lttle more on reading. i've no trouble reading sheets and creating a decent improvised accompanyment . i do struggle with sight reading, so it makes playing in jazz ensembles hell sometimes.
anyway from a students perspective i would definetly put emphasis on there interestes, while filling in the gaps. jazz piano is so vast and we are reponsible for so much. so sometimes it seems rather daunting to start playing. so for what few students i taught i let them ask the questions without straying to much from the basics.
one of the great things my teacher did was give me sheet play it like he would might perform it and then let me pick apart his playing and ask questions.
thanks,
nate
anyway from a students perspective i would definetly put emphasis on there interestes, while filling in the gaps. jazz piano is so vast and we are reponsible for so much. so sometimes it seems rather daunting to start playing. so for what few students i taught i let them ask the questions without straying to much from the basics.
one of the great things my teacher did was give me sheet play it like he would might perform it and then let me pick apart his playing and ask questions.
thanks,
nate
my teacher was steve browman i learned autumn leaves with 1-3-7-10 voicings these chords are fundamental and will open up your ears and as you go on you will be able to add coloring tones. it was a labor of love for me good luck
wow! nice feedback. thank you. let me follow up with a few questions then:
- nihonjin
how would you spend the 45 minutes with the student? also, what would be your expectation for the following session?
- jmkarns & whack
good points. assume the guy says "i want to play jazz standards from leadsheets", and let's assume that given a couple days of practice, he'd be able to play one using 2+2.
- bud
i'm with you there. it seems rh voicings are easier than lh somehow. and finding the v without the ii is still a challenge...
i get stuck on the concept of "mastering" anything. it seems to me you can only master very small chunks, such as ii-vs going down chromatically (for example). still doesn't mean you master the ii-v. at some point, you will master it, but i think it takes many years.
- 7
nice advice on the blues. i don't want to go into an argument on what' a beginner, but i like that swiss cheese metaphor. it's exactly where i'm getting at. you might be able to play many tunes using your 2-5 voicings, yet, you still don't know your inversions. i'm trying to figure out exactly when it becomes an issue.
one more question, in your experience, what do you think is good frequency for lessons? for the same "beginner". assume he'll spend about an hour a day on his own.
thanks!
- nihonjin
how would you spend the 45 minutes with the student? also, what would be your expectation for the following session?
- jmkarns & whack
good points. assume the guy says "i want to play jazz standards from leadsheets", and let's assume that given a couple days of practice, he'd be able to play one using 2+2.
- bud
i'm with you there. it seems rh voicings are easier than lh somehow. and finding the v without the ii is still a challenge...
i get stuck on the concept of "mastering" anything. it seems to me you can only master very small chunks, such as ii-vs going down chromatically (for example). still doesn't mean you master the ii-v. at some point, you will master it, but i think it takes many years.
- 7
nice advice on the blues. i don't want to go into an argument on what' a beginner, but i like that swiss cheese metaphor. it's exactly where i'm getting at. you might be able to play many tunes using your 2-5 voicings, yet, you still don't know your inversions. i'm trying to figure out exactly when it becomes an issue.
one more question, in your experience, what do you think is good frequency for lessons? for the same "beginner". assume he'll spend about an hour a day on his own.
thanks!
hey 7 my organ playing is kinda cheezy does that mean i have "swiss cheese" knowledge? :d
knotty, that would be a good start. it's been my experience that after playing standards ad nauseum, you just gotta start improvising after a while. that's when listening to the masters comes in.
knotty, that would be a good start. it's been my experience that after playing standards ad nauseum, you just gotta start improvising after a while. that's when listening to the masters comes in.
ditto - after you get a few sets of tunes, you keep listening, experimenting, playing the tunes in different keys and filling in the cheese holes :) experience is the best education.
you know what's difficult for an adult is knowing whether you are on the right track or not. as an adult, we have already heard so much music, we ask ourselves too many questions. it's hard to set the right expectations.
i don't think kids have this issue.
i don't think kids have this issue.
i think this series is inspiring to watch and learn from. especially bill evans' beginnings in jazz.
"
i take this to mean "how many hours of instruction per week?"
the vast majority of students take one half-hour lessons once a week.
there are those who are gung-ho and well-heeled that have both the time and the money to go a full hour once a week, but that can be pretty intense.
the amount of lesson time per week is better calculated by knowing the amount of time that the student spends in practice each week.
start with this ratio and tweak it according to the student's abilities:
a 30-minute lesson requires a minimum of 3 hours of practice per week (ie around a half-hour of practice per day)
a 60-minute lesson requires 6 hours of practice per week (ie around an hour of practice per day)
a student that actually practices 2 hours per day could probably handle 2 hours of lesson time per week (but i would suggest breaking it up into two one-hour sessions - like an hour on monday and an hour on thursday or friday - rather than a marathon 120-minute session which can also be extremely taxing for the teacher).
the above are just my opinions and may not accurately reflect the situation of the student that you are referring to.
i take this to mean "how many hours of instruction per week?"
the vast majority of students take one half-hour lessons once a week.
there are those who are gung-ho and well-heeled that have both the time and the money to go a full hour once a week, but that can be pretty intense.
the amount of lesson time per week is better calculated by knowing the amount of time that the student spends in practice each week.
start with this ratio and tweak it according to the student's abilities:
a 30-minute lesson requires a minimum of 3 hours of practice per week (ie around a half-hour of practice per day)
a 60-minute lesson requires 6 hours of practice per week (ie around an hour of practice per day)
a student that actually practices 2 hours per day could probably handle 2 hours of lesson time per week (but i would suggest breaking it up into two one-hour sessions - like an hour on monday and an hour on thursday or friday - rather than a marathon 120-minute session which can also be extremely taxing for the teacher).
the above are just my opinions and may not accurately reflect the situation of the student that you are referring to.
i don't like to argue with 7 because he's been most places and done most things (certainly more than me) but...in my experience the blues is the kiss of death for a beginning jazz pianist. i was hanging around a big music store in london last week and on one side were the youths hunched over their guitars playing blues licks for hours on end, and on the other side there were slightly geekier-looking youths playing exactly the same bladdy licks on the keyboards. it was like being in one of dante's outer circles. there wasn't a note of jazz played in the joint. and i know, from years of running workshops and teaching one-to-one, these are the same characters who turn up to learn a bit about improvisation and what happens? you give them "tangerine" to work on. bladdy blues licks. your give them "autumn leaves". bladdy blues licks. you give them something modal like "little sunflower". bbl. i've even tried to give them "three blind mice". bbbbl. i've never known anyone infected with the bbl ever to emerge with the capacity to play anything resembling a bebop phrase, or to be able to hold their own even in a swing group.
(calms down, chants mantra, rant over)
so in my opinion - save the blues for much later. that way there's a slim chance of being able to make progress with this jazz stuff, it'll make your life easier (and be better for my blood pressure).
sid
(calms down, chants mantra, rant over)
so in my opinion - save the blues for much later. that way there's a slim chance of being able to make progress with this jazz stuff, it'll make your life easier (and be better for my blood pressure).
sid
i actually like to idea of using the blues to evaluate the level of the students in terms of ideas, articulation and timing. groove and feel so to speak. because you can't really get lost playing the blues.
whereas if you ask a beginner to start and improvise on wave, how much can he really show?
if you want to see the best of a new student (who wants to play jazz), ask him to play the blues. seems fine to me.
7, thanks for the feedback on time / week. that was indeed my question. (english's my 2nd language you know :) )
jmkars, great link. i might also recommend kenny werner's 'effortless mastery'. it's a great read even if you don't apply any of it.
some of what bill evans says i'm still not sure how to interpret. in particular, he talks about young musicians trying to play like the top flights, but only approximating. where instead they should learn simple concepts and build on it. he says other things that seem controversial. i think there's a lot in between the lines.
whereas if you ask a beginner to start and improvise on wave, how much can he really show?
if you want to see the best of a new student (who wants to play jazz), ask him to play the blues. seems fine to me.
7, thanks for the feedback on time / week. that was indeed my question. (english's my 2nd language you know :) )
jmkars, great link. i might also recommend kenny werner's 'effortless mastery'. it's a great read even if you don't apply any of it.
some of what bill evans says i'm still not sure how to interpret. in particular, he talks about young musicians trying to play like the top flights, but only approximating. where instead they should learn simple concepts and build on it. he says other things that seem controversial. i think there's a lot in between the lines.
reply to knotty w.
my comment was meant as a mean to inspire a student and get him to listen to jazz and transcribe himself as i think that is really valuable. of course i would also use lesson time to show him voicings etc. but i figured that a lot of other guys here would probably suggest that. just i did not want to repeat things that are obviousm but instead give an advice that maybe not so many people have thought of. and again i think it is very important to always relate a lesson to a musical situation and inspire students with music not just give them a bunch of excersises.
nihonjin
my comment was meant as a mean to inspire a student and get him to listen to jazz and transcribe himself as i think that is really valuable. of course i would also use lesson time to show him voicings etc. but i figured that a lot of other guys here would probably suggest that. just i did not want to repeat things that are obviousm but instead give an advice that maybe not so many people have thought of. and again i think it is very important to always relate a lesson to a musical situation and inspire students with music not just give them a bunch of excersises.
nihonjin
i too usually start beginners with simple 12-bar blues. most have a difficult time just keeping the form at first. i think it's important to develop improvisational skills & musical ideas within the confines of a simple form with only a few chords and a few notes, then build from there. in addition to blues i also use simple tunes like "so what"
since the blues features the primary chords of the key, going through all 12 is very beneficial for a myriad of reasons. it should not be considered laborious. it's actually fun - but then again i'm an idiot :)
since the blues features the primary chords of the key, going through all 12 is very beneficial for a myriad of reasons. it should not be considered laborious. it's actually fun - but then again i'm an idiot :)
and to our esteemed colleague, sid. i empathize. i can't stand more than 15 minutes in a music store for the reasons you described. but we have to realize our interests in jazz make if difficult for us to tolerate bad blues playing. i can only tolerate great blues playing for about 10 minutes or so:)
i think a lot of youngsters earliest musical influences are rock and blues, so it's understandable to me that their first encounter with jazz it would be to approach it based on what they've heard growing up.
as students. i like to meet them where they are, and introduce them to a broader scope of music as we go
i think a lot of youngsters earliest musical influences are rock and blues, so it's understandable to me that their first encounter with jazz it would be to approach it based on what they've heard growing up.
as students. i like to meet them where they are, and introduce them to a broader scope of music as we go
hey doc,
how to you go about 'so what'? i actually think it's a lot more difficult to make melodic sense with 'so what'. do you suggest they can play using all white keys, or do you introduce modal scales and pentatonic?
at what point do you start asking to play the blues in
"less common" keys? do you start the "transposing exercise" early in the development. certainly giving me ideas on ways to practice my dominant chords :)
how to you go about 'so what'? i actually think it's a lot more difficult to make melodic sense with 'so what'. do you suggest they can play using all white keys, or do you introduce modal scales and pentatonic?
at what point do you start asking to play the blues in
"less common" keys? do you start the "transposing exercise" early in the development. certainly giving me ideas on ways to practice my dominant chords :)
i usually get better results saying "hey just try to create melodies using the white keys" i show them a few three-note quartals to use for comping and i walk some bass. it's amazing how good most sound. we focus on the first 16 until they're real comfortable, then go up a half and half some more fun.
as for blues, i usually start with c-jam, because it only has to notes, which are the tonic and dominant and it is very easy to transpose. after they're comfortable with c they get to pick which the the 12 they want to do next, this way i don't represent any one key as being easier or more difficult than another...
as for blues, i usually start with c-jam, because it only has to notes, which are the tonic and dominant and it is very easy to transpose. after they're comfortable with c they get to pick which the the 12 they want to do next, this way i don't represent any one key as being easier or more difficult than another...
i guess this is kind of a swiss cheese approach:)
one thing i suggest is using a book at first,either something you put together or one of the recommended ones,to make things a little more concrete for the student,helping them to organize and focus in on things;unlike players who've learned things and practice them in different ways away from the written page,lots of times people at a developing level do well with something they can refer to that shows them exactly what you're talking about......
for what it's worth, i look at music, especially jazz, as a language. we learn to speak before we learn to write, so i approach teaching jazz the same way. the books may come in handy to fill in the cheese holes (love that metaphor, 7 :) after a person is somewhat comfortable with sounds, phrasing,etc. but there is no match for listening and experimenting. using a book first can be overwhelming and distracting imo since the info will not yet have any apparent relevance. to feel you must learn a to progress to b can be a very stifling approach for some.
i remember sitting through a year of spanish class and realizing after the year i couldn't really couldn't converse in spanish at all. however when i went to mexico, i jumped in, gave it a try here and there in in a day or two, i was at least using the language.
i remember sitting through a year of spanish class and realizing after the year i couldn't really couldn't converse in spanish at all. however when i went to mexico, i jumped in, gave it a try here and there in in a day or two, i was at least using the language.
, as many contend, that the pentatonic is the major scale with two notes missing), and that the chromatic scale is a man-made tone row which only exists due to to the artificial alterations to the natural scale inherent in tempered tuning.
since in american music the pentatonic is virtually synonymous with the blues and blues is such an integral part of many forms of jazz, i believe that it is both an excellent springboard and litmus test.
sid thomas is certainly correct that it is not necessary to master the blues to become a jazz player (the keyboard genius of this monster musician is irrefutable evidence of this fact), it is also not necessary to have had extensive classical training to become a truly great jazz musician either (as much as some would posit otherwise).
not everyone agrees with mr marsalis' famous quote, and not everyone has to. i would suggest that mr marsalis' quote be taken simply as a "rule of thumb" rather than some indisputable law.
since in american music the pentatonic is virtually synonymous with the blues and blues is such an integral part of many forms of jazz, i believe that it is both an excellent springboard and litmus test.
sid thomas is certainly correct that it is not necessary to master the blues to become a jazz player (the keyboard genius of this monster musician is irrefutable evidence of this fact), it is also not necessary to have had extensive classical training to become a truly great jazz musician either (as much as some would posit otherwise).
not everyone agrees with mr marsalis' famous quote, and not everyone has to. i would suggest that mr marsalis' quote be taken simply as a "rule of thumb" rather than some indisputable law.
maybe i'm misunderstanding what people mean by "blues". if we're talking about something like blues for alice (the form sometimes called the swedish blues, using mostly major and minor 7 chords) then that's reasonably harmless. but blues scale blues with dom 7s for tonic chords is disastrous. if that's your introduction to jazz, you're lost before you start.
blimey, i seem to feel quite strongly about this. i must have forgotten to take my pill this morning.
sid
blimey, i seem to feel quite strongly about this. i must have forgotten to take my pill this morning.
sid
to me blues is just another flavor in the pot, as is spanish music.
that was a great tour 7, i was beginning to wonder if lunch would be provided. have you considered an instructional book of your own?
maybe the ljp online community is enough eh?
that was a great tour 7, i was beginning to wonder if lunch would be provided. have you considered an instructional book of your own?
maybe the ljp online community is enough eh?
hi guys, i'm that student and ya'll been my defacto teachers for a while. special thanks to albetan who put up a lot of great stuff i've raided.
so i need some advice, and a probably real teacher but for now... i'm kinda floundering. a real teacher is the ticket but i travel a lot for work and getting a teacher for now just doest't work with their scheduling .
been playing guitar for over 30 yrs, with blues and americana holding sway over the last half...some jazz experimentation in there as well. i've been studing levine and other theory sources for longer than i want to admit given how far i haven't come.
for piano i can run major and pent scales in most keys, i can fake minor scales and by that i mean i need to think about what i need to do to modify a major to get to a given non-major scale before i play it. once i sort it out i play the fingering. running hands alone works, hands together is another story for most things.
i can form triads instantly, all inversion, in some keys eventually in others. i've been working on 2-5s and depending on the voicing i can play them fairly on call in a some keys or with a struggle in others. i forget the source but i have a list of various voicings i'm working on ranging from root in the lft with 3-5-7 in the rt (got that one) to voicings that may use for example 6-9 chords subbing for the maj 7 and 1-3 or 1-7 in the lft...more of a struggle here.
been trying some walking bass lines with some partial chord stabs on top trying to coordinate the two hands. also working improv with modes over a given chord voicing...basically arpegiating and hitting some other chord/scale tones. also trying 3-7 stabs in the left and trying to run scale lines in the rt. again struggling to coordinate the two hands.
cant read for diddly. i got the alfred adult book volume i and plowed through it. where they get such cheezy tunes i'll never know. i have a real book that i'm starting to try and use more but the tunes in c are limited and beyond a couple of flats or sharps and my reading skills get really taxed. complex rhythm reading kills me, especially if i've never heard the tune.
basically after about a year and a half of fairly consistant work i still can't play a thing. as you can see i'm dabbling everywhere and i need some focus. there is too much info available and i keep wanting to run before i can do much more than stand.
how can i focus my pracitce to get better results especially in two hand coordination. from some of the posts it sounds like i should be spending more time with the real book learning tunes and working in the other stuff in as it comes. should i stick with the simple ii-v and forget the more complicated voicings for a while?
should i ditch the adult instruction books or do they have a foundational role to play as i think smg suggests..which book?
the beginner books start you out with set hand position playing which works for one key with tight simple voicings minimal finger shifts between chords. but what do you do in the real world. do you try to build chords and melodies sticking to the fingering of the applicable key at all times? and then there's te detail of multi positions in a key such as root and v positions that the alfred book introduces.
again a big sorry for the long post...i'm afraid to see how long when i hit send. thanks for any guidance you can give.
so i need some advice, and a probably real teacher but for now... i'm kinda floundering. a real teacher is the ticket but i travel a lot for work and getting a teacher for now just doest't work with their scheduling .
been playing guitar for over 30 yrs, with blues and americana holding sway over the last half...some jazz experimentation in there as well. i've been studing levine and other theory sources for longer than i want to admit given how far i haven't come.
for piano i can run major and pent scales in most keys, i can fake minor scales and by that i mean i need to think about what i need to do to modify a major to get to a given non-major scale before i play it. once i sort it out i play the fingering. running hands alone works, hands together is another story for most things.
i can form triads instantly, all inversion, in some keys eventually in others. i've been working on 2-5s and depending on the voicing i can play them fairly on call in a some keys or with a struggle in others. i forget the source but i have a list of various voicings i'm working on ranging from root in the lft with 3-5-7 in the rt (got that one) to voicings that may use for example 6-9 chords subbing for the maj 7 and 1-3 or 1-7 in the lft...more of a struggle here.
been trying some walking bass lines with some partial chord stabs on top trying to coordinate the two hands. also working improv with modes over a given chord voicing...basically arpegiating and hitting some other chord/scale tones. also trying 3-7 stabs in the left and trying to run scale lines in the rt. again struggling to coordinate the two hands.
cant read for diddly. i got the alfred adult book volume i and plowed through it. where they get such cheezy tunes i'll never know. i have a real book that i'm starting to try and use more but the tunes in c are limited and beyond a couple of flats or sharps and my reading skills get really taxed. complex rhythm reading kills me, especially if i've never heard the tune.
basically after about a year and a half of fairly consistant work i still can't play a thing. as you can see i'm dabbling everywhere and i need some focus. there is too much info available and i keep wanting to run before i can do much more than stand.
how can i focus my pracitce to get better results especially in two hand coordination. from some of the posts it sounds like i should be spending more time with the real book learning tunes and working in the other stuff in as it comes. should i stick with the simple ii-v and forget the more complicated voicings for a while?
should i ditch the adult instruction books or do they have a foundational role to play as i think smg suggests..which book?
the beginner books start you out with set hand position playing which works for one key with tight simple voicings minimal finger shifts between chords. but what do you do in the real world. do you try to build chords and melodies sticking to the fingering of the applicable key at all times? and then there's te detail of multi positions in a key such as root and v positions that the alfred book introduces.
again a big sorry for the long post...i'm afraid to see how long when i hit send. thanks for any guidance you can give.
anacephalic,
i am in the exact same boat. you pretty much just described me. i did work with a couple teachers, and though they had totally different approaches and background, the method is really in line with that whack, 7 and scot said here. i believe it to be a good method.
still... i can play very little. it takes time.
but here's how i really enjoy spending my time lately.
i got this book:
jim snidero - jazz conception for piano - advance music.
now i can't read either, but this comes with a cd, so i just play along with the original, half by ear, half by deciphering the sheets.
it works.
i record all of this on youtube, check my knotty75 profile. look at 6 months ago, and look at my latest. i actually think i made good progress.
but that's not all.
i love it, i absolutely do. the backing fits so tight with what you play, you get the "i'm flying feeling", especially when once in the while, you're able to start locking in to that groove.
that also demystifies a lot of theory, because it's full of applications of fairly advanced concepts. quartals, garland block chords, phrasing, repeating yourself. it's all in there.
that helps me feel confident.
recording myself helps too. it simulates an actual performance. and i enjoy that too.
that's not all i do, i still play from sheet. and some of these ideas start showing. but it takes times.
for example, only last week i've started being able to stretch a minor 10th. i had to for that one sheet. i used to not reach even a 9th.
now, every cm i see i try to pull that open voicing.
i do scales, but i try to make it fun. challenge myself basically.
by the way, the way i work with the backing cd is with 'transcribe!'. i put the tempo way down to 40 or 50 %, then raise it up slowly, but always i keep the original piano playing. i try to imitate the guy (mike ledonne) as much as i can. and at that speed, you hear a lot more. "transcribe!" is really really worth it for me.
that book is like 20 bucks, and i've spent easily over 300 hours on it already... some darn good investment.
one question, you say you travel a lot for work. are you able to pack a small keyboard. i know how bored people get in these hotel rooms...
i am in the exact same boat. you pretty much just described me. i did work with a couple teachers, and though they had totally different approaches and background, the method is really in line with that whack, 7 and scot said here. i believe it to be a good method.
still... i can play very little. it takes time.
but here's how i really enjoy spending my time lately.
i got this book:
jim snidero - jazz conception for piano - advance music.
now i can't read either, but this comes with a cd, so i just play along with the original, half by ear, half by deciphering the sheets.
it works.
i record all of this on youtube, check my knotty75 profile. look at 6 months ago, and look at my latest. i actually think i made good progress.
but that's not all.
i love it, i absolutely do. the backing fits so tight with what you play, you get the "i'm flying feeling", especially when once in the while, you're able to start locking in to that groove.
that also demystifies a lot of theory, because it's full of applications of fairly advanced concepts. quartals, garland block chords, phrasing, repeating yourself. it's all in there.
that helps me feel confident.
recording myself helps too. it simulates an actual performance. and i enjoy that too.
that's not all i do, i still play from sheet. and some of these ideas start showing. but it takes times.
for example, only last week i've started being able to stretch a minor 10th. i had to for that one sheet. i used to not reach even a 9th.
now, every cm i see i try to pull that open voicing.
i do scales, but i try to make it fun. challenge myself basically.
by the way, the way i work with the backing cd is with 'transcribe!'. i put the tempo way down to 40 or 50 %, then raise it up slowly, but always i keep the original piano playing. i try to imitate the guy (mike ledonne) as much as i can. and at that speed, you hear a lot more. "transcribe!" is really really worth it for me.
that book is like 20 bucks, and i've spent easily over 300 hours on it already... some darn good investment.
one question, you say you travel a lot for work. are you able to pack a small keyboard. i know how bored people get in these hotel rooms...
if someone masters the search book feature here, please submit link.
meanwhile, if you should care, my latest yt video:
meanwhile, if you should care, my latest yt video:
anacephalic,
it sounds like you've done an awful lot of prep work! but as you are finding out, it really doesn't mean anything unless you can apply it to tunes. so yes, learn some tunes and start having fun using the language!
i hate to blast alfred because they have been around for so many years, but that "hand position" approach almost always leaves a student sort of playing by finger numbers rather than learning how to read music. i would ditch those and look toward a better series like faber & faber's piano adventures. they have recently come out with two adult books. i've only seen the first one, but it seems pretty nice. there are a lot of things in there that i don't think need to be in there, but who am i?
it sounds like you've done an awful lot of prep work! but as you are finding out, it really doesn't mean anything unless you can apply it to tunes. so yes, learn some tunes and start having fun using the language!
i hate to blast alfred because they have been around for so many years, but that "hand position" approach almost always leaves a student sort of playing by finger numbers rather than learning how to read music. i would ditch those and look toward a better series like faber & faber's piano adventures. they have recently come out with two adult books. i've only seen the first one, but it seems pretty nice. there are a lot of things in there that i don't think need to be in there, but who am i?
there are a lot of sites online that teach you the basics of reading..as far as which book to use or what printed material to look at-depends on what your focus is.....many things can be written out without the musical staff(i.e. letter names,etc....)..........
dr wack, when i play on my own with out the book i tend to base lft hand voicings with my 1 finger holding down the lowest note (root, 3 whatever) and then move with the chords, not staying with the strict positional fingering. with the rt hand, where more of the notes in the voicings tend to reside i also accomodate comfort. sometimes that means i have to play the scale runs however they work out and hope i don't get knotted up somewhere.
is that ok. i'm afraid i may be getting into bad finguring habits i would have to break later. given some of the "finer" habits i accumulated on guitar i'd prefer to try to do this instrument correctly...or closer to it anyway. can i interpret you comment of "learning how to read music" instead of "playing by finger number" to allow for more flexibility in what finger the note you identify is hit with than the books appear to allow for. i'll snif out the faber series and give them a whirl. i'm also trying to play stuff out of levine as reading practice
the basics of reading i probably have i just really s*ck and need to put in time, especially bass cleff. for the easy stuff once i muddle through a couple of times i can usually play it by ear better than read it. maybe that's ok though. for guitar i generally cheat and use tab. for learning ii-v-i i went through them all and identified chord intervals and then marked out the w/h step changes between each voice. talk about cheating the system. i try to focus on how the change sounds and get the muscle memory going with the numbers setting on the page as a crutch. on the up side looking at interval structure rather than reading allows working out in other keys a lot easier than reading in other keys.
i assume that coordinating 2 hands is just a lot of practice using one hand to carry the weight (alternating to equalize development) and working the other in as you can. sound reasonable?
thanks all
is that ok. i'm afraid i may be getting into bad finguring habits i would have to break later. given some of the "finer" habits i accumulated on guitar i'd prefer to try to do this instrument correctly...or closer to it anyway. can i interpret you comment of "learning how to read music" instead of "playing by finger number" to allow for more flexibility in what finger the note you identify is hit with than the books appear to allow for. i'll snif out the faber series and give them a whirl. i'm also trying to play stuff out of levine as reading practice
the basics of reading i probably have i just really s*ck and need to put in time, especially bass cleff. for the easy stuff once i muddle through a couple of times i can usually play it by ear better than read it. maybe that's ok though. for guitar i generally cheat and use tab. for learning ii-v-i i went through them all and identified chord intervals and then marked out the w/h step changes between each voice. talk about cheating the system. i try to focus on how the change sounds and get the muscle memory going with the numbers setting on the page as a crutch. on the up side looking at interval structure rather than reading allows working out in other keys a lot easier than reading in other keys.
i assume that coordinating 2 hands is just a lot of practice using one hand to carry the weight (alternating to equalize development) and working the other in as you can. sound reasonable?
thanks all
i'm not fully understanding what you are saying. it sounds like you could benefit from few lessons with teacher, at least to get you started. bad habits are sometimes hard to break. (not saying you have any - i have no way of knowing)
regarding my "playing by numbers" comment; what i meant was by having the students move to a "5 finger position" and simply pressing the appropriate fingers to play the tunes, it is very easy to do so without knowing what notes or keys they are playing. the faber books feature a better variety of fingering combinations that forces the student to actually think about what notes they are playing. they also do a better job of presenting info in a logical progressive order.
regarding my "playing by numbers" comment; what i meant was by having the students move to a "5 finger position" and simply pressing the appropriate fingers to play the tunes, it is very easy to do so without knowing what notes or keys they are playing. the faber books feature a better variety of fingering combinations that forces the student to actually think about what notes they are playing. they also do a better job of presenting info in a logical progressive order.
stem from "bladder" (ie. "pissy"). or is it a short vowel as in “bloody odd”?
- and it also occurred to me that perhaps it is related to “blaah, blaah, blaah” as in “meaningless blather” in which case the word “blather” would be the root (maybe a welsh pronuciation of “blathy” with the “th” phonetically shifted to sound as a “d”?).
- and finally i thought that it might be a onomatopaeic. which means that the word imitates the sounds that amateur guitarists make when playing their limited repertoire of blues licks.
it would be kind of you to clear up this mystery once and for so that i may confidently use the word in the presence of highly educated intellectuals without the fear of embarrassing myself by the misuse thereof.
thank you!
7
- and it also occurred to me that perhaps it is related to “blaah, blaah, blaah” as in “meaningless blather” in which case the word “blather” would be the root (maybe a welsh pronuciation of “blathy” with the “th” phonetically shifted to sound as a “d”?).
- and finally i thought that it might be a onomatopaeic. which means that the word imitates the sounds that amateur guitarists make when playing their limited repertoire of blues licks.
it would be kind of you to clear up this mystery once and for so that i may confidently use the word in the presence of highly educated intellectuals without the fear of embarrassing myself by the misuse thereof.
thank you!
7
is "bladdy" perhaps romanian in origin?
as everyone knows, the real count dracula actually lived in transylvania in the 15th century and was also know as "vlad the impaler".
his friends and family all knew him as "vladi".
does this vampire connection explain your "kiss of death" reference?
as everyone knows, the real count dracula actually lived in transylvania in the 15th century and was also know as "vlad the impaler".
his friends and family all knew him as "vladi".
does this vampire connection explain your "kiss of death" reference?
yes sid, do tell. inquiring minds want to know.
thanks knotty for the jim sidnero reference.
i notice you are learning some ellington material, and that is one thing that helped me too. (don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing).
thanks knotty for the jim sidnero reference.
i notice you are learning some ellington material, and that is one thing that helped me too. (don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing).
does anyone need to know this, or care? as a swear word, "bloody" supposedly is a mediaeval contraction of the oath "by our lady", and that's where it gets its blasphemous connotation. nothing to do with blood, the fluid, at all (although the possible confusion has probably helped the word to sidle into semi-polite conversation over the years...)
back to the thread: the first thing i ask a student is "what do you want to sound like?" they usually don't know.
back to the thread: the first thing i ask a student is "what do you want to sound like?" they usually don't know.
and i think i'm with 7 on this. the b****y blues is a double-edged thing. its power derives from its simplicity - easily learned, never mastered. the blues is a language to express yourself in, not a formula to "sound cool".
do you want to sound like?"
i have always been under the impression that jazz is a personal form of expression. therefore, if someone were to pose that question to me my answer would have to be "i want to sound like myself".
as a corollary to my above statement, i would have to add "i wish to speak with my own voice and realize my potential to the best of my abilities via assimilation of the knowledge and techniques of my forbears (or is that three bears?)"
damn, goldilocks, being a blonde does have its drawbacks ...
i have always been under the impression that jazz is a personal form of expression. therefore, if someone were to pose that question to me my answer would have to be "i want to sound like myself".
as a corollary to my above statement, i would have to add "i wish to speak with my own voice and realize my potential to the best of my abilities via assimilation of the knowledge and techniques of my forbears (or is that three bears?)"
damn, goldilocks, being a blonde does have its drawbacks ...
there's a famous account by jean-paul sartre of his observing a waiter in a cafe behaving like an actor playing the part of a waiter in a cafe. thinking back to my own journey towards whatever place i've arrived at in jazz, i think it could be necessary to act like a jazz pianist before you actually become one.
don't waste time worrying about the origin of bladdy. it's not bladdy worth it.
sid
don't waste time worrying about the origin of bladdy. it's not bladdy worth it.
sid
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