Phrygian Chords
chapter 4 in the levine's book, right after shell voicings, is the somewhat advanced topic of sus and phrygian chords.
does it make sense to you all that this should go so early in the book.
in any event, how do you visualize phrygian chords?
do you think :
1. c phrygian. it's in ab, so i'm playing notes from the ab major scale. and the v in ab is eb, so i'm going to play the 3rd and 7th of eb?
2. c phrygian. play dom 7 chord a minor 3rd above. eb7. don't worry about the mode so much.
i've been doing 1 to get these into my head, and get used to the sound of them, but it seems convoluted.
any thoughts on how to tackle chapter 4?
right now, i'm simply going through the suggested tunes.
does it make sense to you all that this should go so early in the book.
in any event, how do you visualize phrygian chords?
do you think :
1. c phrygian. it's in ab, so i'm playing notes from the ab major scale. and the v in ab is eb, so i'm going to play the 3rd and 7th of eb?
2. c phrygian. play dom 7 chord a minor 3rd above. eb7. don't worry about the mode so much.
i've been doing 1 to get these into my head, and get used to the sound of them, but it seems convoluted.
any thoughts on how to tackle chapter 4?
right now, i'm simply going through the suggested tunes.
There are 26 comments, leave a comment.
yes, mark explained how you play phrygian voicings in his wonderful book. in my jazz text book jazzology i used the same explanation, so i will simplify it as below:
c phrygian voicing would a voicing of a dominant 7th chord that is a m3rd above c. the dom. 7th chord yould be eb13. so you play bass not c with your l.h and you play any inversion of eb13 voicings just like:
eb13: b7,9,3,13
so you hand wold play c phrygian vocings like:
c_______________db f g c (this the phrygian voicing witch mark discuss about)
but you can try this too:
c_______________db f g bb or inversions.
c phrygian voicing would a voicing of a dominant 7th chord that is a m3rd above c. the dom. 7th chord yould be eb13. so you play bass not c with your l.h and you play any inversion of eb13 voicings just like:
eb13: b7,9,3,13
so you hand wold play c phrygian vocings like:
c_______________db f g c (this the phrygian voicing witch mark discuss about)
but you can try this too:
c_______________db f g bb or inversions.
nor,
i have your book also, i will take a look now. so the way you look at it is dom7th a min3rd above.
great book by the way!
i have your book also, i will take a look now. so the way you look at it is dom7th a min3rd above.
great book by the way!
that's a good way to voice c phryg and to visualize the voicing, but remember it does not function as an eb7.
ok, here is my take on it. i don't know if this will simplify things, or unnecessarily make them more complex, but this is what works for me.
basically, the chord you are talking about is what i think of as being the equivalent of a vsus7 chord, but in a minor key.
in a major key, the v chord can be either a dom7 chord, a dom7 chord with alterations, or a sus7 chord. in another thread somebody recently asked about ways to spice up their playing on the bridge to a rhythm changes tune, my$.02 was to treat all of the dom 7 chords as sus7 chords. one formula for doing that is to take the voicing for the corresponding ii chord, and play it over the bass note of the v chord. it is a quick and easy way to get a hipper, more modern, modal sound using a voicing most intermediate players will probably already have under their fingertips.
now, to bridge the gap between a sus7 chord and the phrygian chords you are talking about, it is important to note that the voicing
g c db f
can be associated with a number of different chords, among them eb7, a7alt, or bb-6, depending on what the bass note is. it is also a voicing i associate with and often use for g-7b5, the ii half-diminished chord of f minor. g-c-db-f is a g half diminished chord where the fourth scale degree, c, substitutes for the 3rd in the same way that g-c-db-f is an eb7 chord where the the 6th scale degree substitutes for the 5th (and the 9th for the tonic). to my ear it sounds great, and it utilizes a shape which is already probably familiar to your hand.
now, if in a major key, we want to get a more "modal" sound from a v7 chord, we take the voicing we might use for the ii chord and play it over the bass note of the v chord. in fmaj this would be g-7/c, or csus7. now translate that into minor. if we take the voicing g-c-db-f, which we associate with g-7b5, the ii chord of f minor, and play it over the bass note of the v7 chord, c, we derive the same chord that mark levine describes.
not only can this chord be used in the context of modal playing, but also as a modern-sounding substite for c7alt, the v7 of f minor.
basically, the chord you are talking about is what i think of as being the equivalent of a vsus7 chord, but in a minor key.
in a major key, the v chord can be either a dom7 chord, a dom7 chord with alterations, or a sus7 chord. in another thread somebody recently asked about ways to spice up their playing on the bridge to a rhythm changes tune, my$.02 was to treat all of the dom 7 chords as sus7 chords. one formula for doing that is to take the voicing for the corresponding ii chord, and play it over the bass note of the v chord. it is a quick and easy way to get a hipper, more modern, modal sound using a voicing most intermediate players will probably already have under their fingertips.
now, to bridge the gap between a sus7 chord and the phrygian chords you are talking about, it is important to note that the voicing
g c db f
can be associated with a number of different chords, among them eb7, a7alt, or bb-6, depending on what the bass note is. it is also a voicing i associate with and often use for g-7b5, the ii half-diminished chord of f minor. g-c-db-f is a g half diminished chord where the fourth scale degree, c, substitutes for the 3rd in the same way that g-c-db-f is an eb7 chord where the the 6th scale degree substitutes for the 5th (and the 9th for the tonic). to my ear it sounds great, and it utilizes a shape which is already probably familiar to your hand.
now, if in a major key, we want to get a more "modal" sound from a v7 chord, we take the voicing we might use for the ii chord and play it over the bass note of the v chord. in fmaj this would be g-7/c, or csus7. now translate that into minor. if we take the voicing g-c-db-f, which we associate with g-7b5, the ii chord of f minor, and play it over the bass note of the v7 chord, c, we derive the same chord that mark levine describes.
not only can this chord be used in the context of modal playing, but also as a modern-sounding substite for c7alt, the v7 of f minor.
jwv76,
that's really interesting. let me see if i can put it this way:
what mark says is to reharm tunes from fake books by replacing ii-vs by phrygian (or sus) chords.
the first tune from his selection is stella. some fakebooks show stella using minor progressions. for example em7b5 to a7b9.
using mark's method, i replace this by aphryg.
what strikes me is that the rh plays em7b5. sometimes with a 4th (it's the 1st melody note), sometimes not.
so i don't think your approach is convoluted at all, when you look at it from the point of view of replacing a 2-5, all you need to do is play the 2 in the rh, and the v in the lh. or am i oversimplifying?
nor,
like 7, i wasn't able to locate that section in jazzology.
that's really interesting. let me see if i can put it this way:
what mark says is to reharm tunes from fake books by replacing ii-vs by phrygian (or sus) chords.
the first tune from his selection is stella. some fakebooks show stella using minor progressions. for example em7b5 to a7b9.
using mark's method, i replace this by aphryg.
what strikes me is that the rh plays em7b5. sometimes with a 4th (it's the 1st melody note), sometimes not.
so i don't think your approach is convoluted at all, when you look at it from the point of view of replacing a 2-5, all you need to do is play the 2 in the rh, and the v in the lh. or am i oversimplifying?
nor,
like 7, i wasn't able to locate that section in jazzology.
sorry guys, i am on a ship playing music and i missed my book at home lol, i know that 7 made an index to jazology but we have to wait for the 2nd edition, anyway i can't tell you what page i mentioned that but please see this link: https://books.google.co.ma/books?id=tnmtmt6hfi0c&pg=pa86&lpg=pa86&dq=jazzology+phrygian&source=bl&ots=jdkx4ewq1b&sig=dtuhmdlaf7qg7cwwhd42eyyrk70&hl=fr&sa=x&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result
i have received some emails asking to explain phrygian chord, and i hope when hal leonrad will pass to 2nd edition, i will try to expand more my topics. as i said a phrygian chord can be in any inversion not just the voicing witch levine gave. i played so much with flamenco guitarists here in morocco and on the ship i meet some spanish guitarist too who use similar voicings of phrygian chord, one of them has told me that i could play any inversion since the mood of the voicing calls for a phrygian feeling.
well here is another approach how to think about phrygian chord in c. do you know the japanese scale c in-sen? it stands for c db f g bb so root b2 4th 5th b7th, now try to play: b2th 4th 5th root with your right hand as a voicing then play c on the bass, that is c phrygian chord, so while voicings c phry. chord yo could slo usig in-sen scale of spanish phrygian (8-notes)...
hoeer i do use too much this chord when i play jazz fusion with turkish, spanish and middle-east music, an example would be to listen to aziza mustafa zadeh who uses lot such kind of chord.
i have received some emails asking to explain phrygian chord, and i hope when hal leonrad will pass to 2nd edition, i will try to expand more my topics. as i said a phrygian chord can be in any inversion not just the voicing witch levine gave. i played so much with flamenco guitarists here in morocco and on the ship i meet some spanish guitarist too who use similar voicings of phrygian chord, one of them has told me that i could play any inversion since the mood of the voicing calls for a phrygian feeling.
well here is another approach how to think about phrygian chord in c. do you know the japanese scale c in-sen? it stands for c db f g bb so root b2 4th 5th b7th, now try to play: b2th 4th 5th root with your right hand as a voicing then play c on the bass, that is c phrygian chord, so while voicings c phry. chord yo could slo usig in-sen scale of spanish phrygian (8-notes)...
hoeer i do use too much this chord when i play jazz fusion with turkish, spanish and middle-east music, an example would be to listen to aziza mustafa zadeh who uses lot such kind of chord.
knotty! i am glad you enjoyed my book i co-pubished with robert rawlins.
i did not index jazzology. i just made the point that it needed one.
bob rawlins indicated to me that he would take care of the indexing of the book.
the pages in jazzology that i have found that have references to the phyrgian chord are: pg 17 (which confuses the hell out of me), pg 74 and pg 86
there might be more references scattered throughout the book, but that's why i was asking nor.
bob rawlins indicated to me that he would take care of the indexing of the book.
the pages in jazzology that i have found that have references to the phyrgian chord are: pg 17 (which confuses the hell out of me), pg 74 and pg 86
there might be more references scattered throughout the book, but that's why i was asking nor.
i'm with 7. what is this all about? i've used chords like for years that but have never referred to them as phrygian...hmmm...not sure i called them anything really...i guess maybe sus4b9??
to me it doesn't seem to be an advanced topic, just another look at how to categorize sounds...hmmm...
to me it doesn't seem to be an advanced topic, just another look at how to categorize sounds...hmmm...
kenny werner made a modal song called "balloons", the chords are:
| g- | gphryg | g- | gphryg | g- | gphryg | g- | gphryg |
| eb-7| eb aeol | eb-7| eb aeol | eb-7| eb aeol | eb-7| eb aeol |
| c aeol | c-9 | c aeol | c-9 | c aeol | c-9 | c aeol | c-9 |
| ab-9| ab aeol | ab-9| ab aeol | ab-9| ab aeol | ab-9| ab aeol |
| f-7 f-7 | dbmaj7 | dbmaj7 | f-7 | f-7 | gbmaj7 | gbmaj7 |
| ab-7 | ab-7 | emaj7 | emaj7 | abmi7 |abmi7 | amaj7 | amaj7 |
| f-7 | f-7 | g-7 | g-7 | c#7sus | c#7sus ||
the way he voices the first line is his left hand play a perfect 5th on g (notes g and d together, straddling middle c) . then in the second measure he simply raises the g to ab (the left hand voicing then becomes a tritone built on ab wich is b2 is the charachteristic note of the phrygian mode sound)
| g- | gphryg | g- | gphryg | g- | gphryg | g- | gphryg |
| eb-7| eb aeol | eb-7| eb aeol | eb-7| eb aeol | eb-7| eb aeol |
| c aeol | c-9 | c aeol | c-9 | c aeol | c-9 | c aeol | c-9 |
| ab-9| ab aeol | ab-9| ab aeol | ab-9| ab aeol | ab-9| ab aeol |
| f-7 f-7 | dbmaj7 | dbmaj7 | f-7 | f-7 | gbmaj7 | gbmaj7 |
| ab-7 | ab-7 | emaj7 | emaj7 | abmi7 |abmi7 | amaj7 | amaj7 |
| f-7 | f-7 | g-7 | g-7 | c#7sus | c#7sus ||
the way he voices the first line is his left hand play a perfect 5th on g (notes g and d together, straddling middle c) . then in the second measure he simply raises the g to ab (the left hand voicing then becomes a tritone built on ab wich is b2 is the charachteristic note of the phrygian mode sound)
drwhack,
how is it being with 7? :)
anyway, i don't want to mis-represent what levine says. the chapter is called phrygian and sus chords. i find it somewhat advanced because of the jump from shell voicings (very simple) in chapter 3 to this in chapter 4.
he notes that you might see them notated:
g7/e
esusb9
ephryg
all notations make sense really, one says you play g7 with e in the bass, the next spells out the alterations, and the last you're playing e in the key of c, hence phrygian. evidently from what i'm getting in this thread, many folks see it differently.
nor use the g7/e idea,
you think of it as susb9,
jvw has yet another view.
and now jazz+ gives a modal example.
i'm just gonna run through a few tunes and see what makes more sense to me.
note that this discussion has really helped.
how is it being with 7? :)
anyway, i don't want to mis-represent what levine says. the chapter is called phrygian and sus chords. i find it somewhat advanced because of the jump from shell voicings (very simple) in chapter 3 to this in chapter 4.
he notes that you might see them notated:
g7/e
esusb9
ephryg
all notations make sense really, one says you play g7 with e in the bass, the next spells out the alterations, and the last you're playing e in the key of c, hence phrygian. evidently from what i'm getting in this thread, many folks see it differently.
nor use the g7/e idea,
you think of it as susb9,
jvw has yet another view.
and now jazz+ gives a modal example.
i'm just gonna run through a few tunes and see what makes more sense to me.
note that this discussion has really helped.
i guess it's like "new math" some of it makes sense, some of it doesn't, some of it helps, some of it doesn't
or what it's worth, i really think everyone should read kenny werner's "effortless mastery" before reading any "theory" books. i think that would help put things into a usable perspective
"for" not "or"
and this has been an interesting discussion.
been with 7. only in my dreams:)
why not think about e phrygian as fmaj7b5/e !!! actually in flamenco, the most common chord is progression in6/8 meter:
||: a- | % | g | % | f | % | e(b9) | % :||
like intro of la fiesta by corea.
sometimes the same chord progression can be played with a pedal e note on the bass like:
||: a-(add9) | % | g9 | % | fmaj7b5 | f7b5 | e7(b9) | % :||
__e bass___________________________________________________
actually i think that such chord progression has a gipsy origin, because i played so much gipsy music and balka music too.
so the layer can also reharmonize g9 as g7, g13 or g7sus, or even gmaj7, then down to fmaj7 but mostly this chord would call for the b5 so fmaj7b5 or reharmonized as f13b5 (f13#11) then to e7(b9), e7(b9) would be played at first as suspended like e7susb9 then e7alt or so.
these are just some guidelines to how to common gipsy/flamenco chord progression.
ah! by the way, sometimes, a guitarist might play this:
||: a-(9) | % | g-6/9) | % | f-6/9 | % | esus(b9) | e(b9) :||
so maybe this is the origin where that phrygan chord comes from.
||: a- | % | g | % | f | % | e(b9) | % :||
like intro of la fiesta by corea.
sometimes the same chord progression can be played with a pedal e note on the bass like:
||: a-(add9) | % | g9 | % | fmaj7b5 | f7b5 | e7(b9) | % :||
__e bass___________________________________________________
actually i think that such chord progression has a gipsy origin, because i played so much gipsy music and balka music too.
so the layer can also reharmonize g9 as g7, g13 or g7sus, or even gmaj7, then down to fmaj7 but mostly this chord would call for the b5 so fmaj7b5 or reharmonized as f13b5 (f13#11) then to e7(b9), e7(b9) would be played at first as suspended like e7susb9 then e7alt or so.
these are just some guidelines to how to common gipsy/flamenco chord progression.
ah! by the way, sometimes, a guitarist might play this:
||: a-(9) | % | g-6/9) | % | f-6/9 | % | esus(b9) | e(b9) :||
so maybe this is the origin where that phrygan chord comes from.
actually, you chould not analys the chord progression:
||: a- | % | g | % | f | % | e(b9) | % :||
as
||: i- | % | bvii | % | bvi | % | v(b9) | % :||
no!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
because the mood rests on e(b9) witch is from oriental music theory the karar in arabic it means the root of the scale, this re-enforce teh meaning of the use of a phryigian scale (with an extra added not that is the m3rd with is g#) over e(b9)
so it shold be analised as:
||: vi- | % | biii | % | bii | % | i(b9) | % :||
it is like of an oposit motion of chords rather than a progression of chords from tonic to other places.
||: a- | % | g | % | f | % | e(b9) | % :||
as
||: i- | % | bvii | % | bvi | % | v(b9) | % :||
no!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
because the mood rests on e(b9) witch is from oriental music theory the karar in arabic it means the root of the scale, this re-enforce teh meaning of the use of a phryigian scale (with an extra added not that is the m3rd with is g#) over e(b9)
so it shold be analised as:
||: vi- | % | biii | % | bii | % | i(b9) | % :||
it is like of an oposit motion of chords rather than a progression of chords from tonic to other places.
nor, i think in the last example where you have vi- as the first chord, you meant iv- ?
oh! sorry, i meant iv-. ;-)
just to add to the confusion, here's how i think about phrygian chords.
for c phrygian: play the maj 7 a semitone higher, i.e. dbmaj7 (db f ab c). flatten the fifth (db f g c). voila: c phryg (aka c sus b9). since a maj7 with a flat fifth is a lydian chord, the db lydian scale (db eb f g ab bb c) fits nicely.
my favourite song that uses this chord is 'my attorney bernie' by dave frischberg. the a section sits on a sus b9 for a whole 8 bars.
sid
for c phrygian: play the maj 7 a semitone higher, i.e. dbmaj7 (db f ab c). flatten the fifth (db f g c). voila: c phryg (aka c sus b9). since a maj7 with a flat fifth is a lydian chord, the db lydian scale (db eb f g ab bb c) fits nicely.
my favourite song that uses this chord is 'my attorney bernie' by dave frischberg. the a section sits on a sus b9 for a whole 8 bars.
sid
thanks sid.
so what mark recommends doing is going through tunes and replacing ii vs by the vsusb9.
is that how you guys would use that chord? (other than tunes that actually call it)
so what mark recommends doing is going through tunes and replacing ii vs by the vsusb9.
is that how you guys would use that chord? (other than tunes that actually call it)
jarrett often replaces a ii v with vsusb9 in the turnaround sections.
and not so much in the other bars.
like sid, i often apply this in a semi-modal way - using phrygian voicing(s) and the phrygian mode in songs that have sections that sit for a time on a susb9 chord.
the arthur schwartz song 'by myself' like 'my attorney bernie' can sit on a susb9 for the first 8 bars of the a section.
this is a midi file i did of the song - it is heavily annotated with explanations of the scales/voicings used, but you only see the annotations correctly placed if you play it in a program that reads markers. sonar does, and also band in a box (if you import it as a midi file). the vanbasco program reads them, but doesn't place them where it should at the place in the music being described.
https://home.wanadoo.nl/dougmckenzie/by%20myself3.mid
another song that can use this modal phrygian idea is coltrane's 'after the rain' (sher music's new real book volume 2). the phrygian chord (eb7susb9) is used for an indefinite solo section.
doug
the arthur schwartz song 'by myself' like 'my attorney bernie' can sit on a susb9 for the first 8 bars of the a section.
this is a midi file i did of the song - it is heavily annotated with explanations of the scales/voicings used, but you only see the annotations correctly placed if you play it in a program that reads markers. sonar does, and also band in a box (if you import it as a midi file). the vanbasco program reads them, but doesn't place them where it should at the place in the music being described.
https://home.wanadoo.nl/dougmckenzie/by%20myself3.mid
another song that can use this modal phrygian idea is coltrane's 'after the rain' (sher music's new real book volume 2). the phrygian chord (eb7susb9) is used for an indefinite solo section.
doug
if you want specifics, jarrett plays c7susb9 in the forst and second endings of litttle girl blue.
Please sign in to post.
Jazz Piano Notebook Series
Volume 1 of this educational jazz piano book contains 15 jazz piano exercises, tricks, and other interesting jazz piano techniques, voicings, grooves, and ideas Scot Ranney enjoys playing.
"Latinesque"
Volume 2 has 14 jazz piano exercises and tricks of the trade, and quite a bit of it is Calypso jazz piano related material, including some Monty Alexander and Michel Camilo style grooves. Jazz piano education is through the ears, but books like this can help.
Volume 3 contains 12 jazz piano exercises and explorations by the acclaimed jazz piano educator, pianist, author, and recording artist Tim Richards.
Tim wrote the well known "Exploring Jazz Piano" and "Improvising Blues Piano" books and has several others to his name.
Volume 4 is by Jeff Brent, a jazz pianist, composer, teacher, and author of "Modalogy" and other acclaimed jazz theory and education books. In this book Jeff shares detailed analysis of transcriptions of live performances. He covers everything from the shape of the songs to the tricks and licks he uses in improvised lines to the ideas behind his lush chord voicings.
Most Recent Discussions
Articles
Piano for Adoption Scam
Aprender Jazz en Piano
BEWARE: FREE BABY GRAND PIANO SCAM
Oh Tannenbaum for Jazz Piano
Volume 5 of the "Jazz Piano Notebook Series" is Available!
LearnJazzPiano.com File Downloads News
more...
Top Sheetmusic Picks
Jazzy Christmas Arrangements
Cocktail Piano
Best Songs Ever, 6th Edition
Christmas Medley
Moana Songbook
Late Night Jazz Piano
Jazz piano education is cool.
Rock on. Follow your passion.
Sign In
privacy policy •
terms of service •
about
•
50,655 messages
63,069 accounts
57,173 logins
LearnJazzPiano.com Copyright © 1995-2024 by Scot Ranney • website software and design by scot's scripts
LearnJazzPiano.com is For Sale - Serious Inquiries Only
LearnJazzPiano.com Copyright © 1995-2024 by Scot Ranney • website software and design by scot's scripts
LearnJazzPiano.com is For Sale - Serious Inquiries Only