i see in his book one that he prescribes improvising with that famous coltrane pentatonic fragment

on c maj7 and c7 he says use 1 2 3 5 (or 5 6 7 9 for the upper extension)

on cmi7 use 1 b3 4 5  

here's a question :

what does he prescribe on:

1) diminshed 7th chords
2) altered dominant 7th chords  
3_ minor 7th flat 5 chords
There are 45 comments, leave a comment.
1.)1 b3 4 5
2.)1 b2 3 5
3.)1 b3 4 5

it is just a matter of taking the chord scale that fits that particular
chord and then altering the 12345 accordingly if it is a major type of  
chord you will be altering 1235 like your altered dom is a major type of chord so you keep the 1235 group but slter 2
your other two examples are minor types so you keep the 1345 grouping and look at the chord scale to see if you should make any alterations.
shouldn't it be?

1.)1 b3 4 "b5" (for dim 7th)
2.)1 b2 3 5  
3.)1 b3 4 "b5" (for minor 7th flat 5)
yes you are correct i was  1/2 asleep when i was doing that sorry.
where does bergonzi go after the 1 2 3 5 (major) and 1 -3 4 5 (minor) shapes?

is it extensions 5 6 7 9 (major) and 5 -7 8 9  (minor)?
think of it like this:  for both major and minor there are six groups.
they are:
1-5
3-7
4-8
5-9
7-11  and
9-13
for minor they are specifically
1345
3457
4578
5789
6123
78911
911121413
i am leaving it up to you to know the 7s should be flat and the
9s should not be according to the correct chord scale.
   you sound interested enough in the topic that i reccomend you buy
his volume one  "melodic structures"  great book... not expensive.
this breakdown of his groupings is my own... how i broke it down to make it easier than how it is laid out in his book for me to memorize.
oh for major and dominant they are specifically:

1235
3567
#4678
5679
6713
7910#11
9111213

although honestly i have done such an excellent job of it down for you here you dont really have to buy the book.  still there are some things that he writes about practicing that are just so poetic...i wold suggest you do not miss them.  and how he suggests  inverting the groupings and doing rhythmic variations for example.
oops exceot i goofed in my opening statement ...  
there are not six groups    
there are seven:

1-5
3-7
4-8
5-9
6-3
7-11
9-13
thanks, mike! that's a great outline, all makes sense. four note groupings sequentialy laid out.
groups    minor  major/dom
    
1     5          1345          1235
3     7          3457          3567
4     8          4578             #4678
5     9           5789          5679
6     3           6123          6713
7     11        78911          7910#11
9     13        911121314       9111213
please let's remember that this is just bergonzi's personal system, it is not a set of rules!!  

for instance, there's no reason you can't play 1235 on  minor chords, or 1345 on major... the point is, you're creating 4-note cells. you can do it any way you like, as long as it sounds good, and as long as you connect them musically from one chord to the next...
how come he starts a cell on every degree except 2 ?
he calls 2 9 thinking of it as an upper extension.  the group i am callin 9 - 13
good summary, drjazz. what do you think the advantage of 4 note cells is?  
i see the 1235 cell used extensively by coltrane on "giant steps", plus some scale runs, some arpeggios, and a couple enclosures.
i also see he played a 2356 cell on bb7 in giant steps and countdown several times. he also plays the 1235 minor cell over the associated v chord, for eaxmple: the fmi7  1235 cell but over the bb7 in bar 2 of his solo.  

"drjazz -- 10/28/2009, 15:43:09 -- #45673  
please let's remember that this is just bergonzi's personal system, it is not a set of rules!!  

for instance, there's no reason you can't play 1235 on  minor chords, or 1345 on major... the point is, you're creating 4-note cells. you can do it any way you like, as long as it sounds good, and as long as you connect them musically from one chord to the next... "
well it is a personal system that he has offered as a good system to everyone to save us from having to do the work our selves of organizing 4 note groups from scratch.  in improvisation since the begining of jazz the name of the game has been trying to figure out how to organize your melodic concepts.  for some of the earliest players that might have simply meant figuring out on what tunes some of the things you had played on other tunes that sounded good might work as well.  certainly this idea of organizing concpts took off with the birth of modal music when knowing modes became critical.  then knowing chord scales and to what chords to apply what scales became the difference between getting a gig and not.  bergonzi has forwarded a clear and concise way of organizing melodic concepts in his book "melodic stuctures".  sure you can create a different system
based on 4 note groupings ... you may even be able to create a better one ( although i doubt it... i have read the book and been working with it for a few monthe now and i would say he has done a pretty bang up job) and i have heard players blowing on gigs that have studied with him.  but if you do create your own system at some point if you are going to be able to use it.... play it... improvise, using it seemlessly,  melodically... you have to stick to one system... for example... decide whether you are going to use 1235 or 1345 on minor chords...   personally i have jb's  book, read it,  talked to players who have studied with him... listened to players who have studied with him.  i think it is a good system and a fun one to practice and play with.  of course there are many sytems of tonal organization out there and there is no need to ever do this one to become a good improviser...  i am just finding it to be a damn handy new tool or  
a great new color in my palette... however you like to think of it.
   the advantage of 4 note cells is ... that is how we swing... we swing in groups of 4...  to improvise in jazz is to think in groups of 4.    listen to a classical player who can not swing but is trying to learn and 9 imes out of 0 it is because the are thinking in two's and they sound like they are on a see saw.  that is not how we swing we think in 's with a slight accent on the first of the group of 4.  
thatt is why master players always practice groups of 4 whether they are thinking of them as a melodic organization or not.
i have jb book my question is where does he get the material from for is practice section on the saxophone. i do not hear his method only perhaps some one could enlighten me about what he's doing as my ear can't quite figure it out. i hear his method on piano but not his sax, how or what am i missing.
i guess you would need to be more specific about what you can not figure out.  he teaches so many different concepts... which ones are confusing you... which ones can you not hear?
mike, no question that digital patterns, or 4-note groups, whatever you call them, are an effective way to approach improvisation. but i don't agree that bergonzi's is the only way to do it. if everyone did it exactly the way he suggests in his book we'd all end up sounding the same, which is a very real danger in this type of jazz education.  isn't one of best things about jazz that it allows every musician to figure out their own methods - thereby developing a personal sound?

also i can't agree that you have to decide whether to play 1235 or 1345 on minor chords, to give your example. why not leave your options open? it's so easy to fall into the rut of playing everything the same way every time! at least practise it both ways, then decide which is best on the basis of which sounds best - not play it one way because you read it in a book that was the 'correct' way!
certainly i did not suggest his method is the only way to do it... so it is not me you are disagreeing with.  also neither jb nor i say that 1345 on minor chords is the "correct" group to play on minor chords.  it is simply an option that is chosen because a choice has to be made to put a system into place.  and no everyone is not going to sound the same if they learn this same system.  to suggest that would be the same as suggesting everyone would soudn the same if they all used the dorian scale on minor 7 chords .. mixolydian on dominants and lydian on major 7 chords.... did everyone sound the same on the "kind of blue album"   i think not.   i am not arguing that everyone should learn jb's method.. frankly  i could care less if any one else ever does.  i was here only to give it a positive review and answer questions that others had about it.
in the beginning of the video jerry plays some nice riffs but i can not relate the concepts he plays on the sax to the excercises he plays on the piano. i am looking to understand how to relate what he plays on the sax to his concepts on the piano. i need to understand how he's applying the piano concepts to his playing at the top of the video i hope my question is clear because i don't hear the connection, i'm thinking that with some insight i may make the connection to his 1235 patterns to what he plays on sax at the top and the section that he plays in the middle of the video.
i guess if i knew what video you were refering to and if i were able to watch i might be able to help.
mike were you able tu view the video
i told you ...  i have no idea what video you are talking about.  read what i said...  :  "i guess if i knew what video you were refering to and if i were able to watch i might be able to help"  is that difficult to understand?  that means:  tell me what video you watched and if i can find it i will watch it..  hm  i do not really know how else to re phrase that.
obviously my messages have not gotten to you in this environment the book and video that comes with jerry's melodic structures vol 1 is what i am referring to, it's the red instructional video that comes with melodic structures vol 1 book and it has jerry's picture on it from a number of years ago. it discusses the four note patterns that your message board is filled with, i assumed that everyone in your post and you had read this book and viewed the instructional video (my bad). i guess that my messages addressing the identification of the exact book melodic structures vol 1 and the included demonstration video got lost in cyber world. thank you for your kindness, patience and respect as communication gliches occur in this format.
sorry so much time has passed now i have long since missplaced the cd thinges that came with the book.  in all the years i have been involved with ljp i have never experienced any problems at all with communications being lost in cyberspace... suggest you re evaluate your own cyber set up.
thank you for considering to answer my question i thought some one might have had the same experience with the video thing that came with the book that i experienced. the only reason i sent this post was to get answers concerning jerry's music demonstrations. thank you for your honesty about leaving this beginning level per haps when i advance myself to your level we might communicate. oh by the way thanks for your advice on re=evaluating my cyber skills.
hey mike i was wondering if my cyber skills have failed me again i am looking for more post in your forum is my post the last. if so per haps you might have the time to suggest a video that you have at this point in time that may help me with my understanding of how jerry uses his approach in his music and maybe you could offer some advice about other concepts he uses that help to make-up his style. again thank you in advance
at the time of your last post on the subject i had never even listend to the cd that came with the book nor was i aware that there was any videos.  normally i ignore such cds that are attached to books for what they are... unecessary sales gimics.  music is an auditory art form.  the fact that you are looking for videos makes no sence to me at all and i can not help you there.  i also find that the cd that comes with his book has more than enough audio examples of what he is talking about because i learned what he was talking about quite completely without listening to any examples at all.  i suggest you listen  again to the audio examples on the accompaniny cd if you feel ou need to hear more examples.  also listen to and try to identify examples in the repetoire of everyday mainstream jazz.. a good place to start there might be with john coltrane playing "giant steps" for example.  listen to all the great improvisers going back all the way to louis armstrong and lester young to hear how they tend to "think in fours"  ... their melodic lines tend to be dominated by phrases that swing containg groups of four 1/8 notes.. sing along with these lines and transcribe them.  this will all lead up to making the only slightly more modern jerry bergonzi destination make a little more sence.
i have been thinking since my last post..  "was my answer a cop out?"
   after some thought i think i might have answered this way.  maybe jerry's book "melodic structures" is a level or two too advanced for you.  i think before getting into and taking advantage of that book you have to already have a good understanding of swing.  you should already understand why we think in  fours when we play 1/8 th note lines.  if you do not i suggest before getting into this book maybe spend some years and i do mean "years" transcribing and singing along as i said above with louis armstrong and lester young solos for example.  to really zoom your process i might suggest some lessons with forum poster dave frank who really has a great way of teaching all this stuff and take you there quicker and surer than anyone else.
but maybe you need to put down the jerry b for a bit and take a step back for a moment.  please forgive me if i am wrong it is always partially a crap shoot trying to teach someone in this forum having never met someone never mind never having heard them play.
sence = sense
i am a jazz pianist.  i believe that incorectly spelled words and incorrect grammeer often end up playing better than corectly spelled words and correct grammer.  so when you write it you can spell it sense if you want... but you did not.  i did.  so sence it is and sence it will stay.  unless of course someone is all of a sudden going to pay me for what i write here like a magazine or something then of course i will worry about how i spell words and the grammer.  until that time spare me the spelling corrections please you freakin little twirp.
exuse me is twirp spelled moron?
actually it's spelled "twerp". if you upgrade your computer system, one of the advantages is an automatic spell checker.

in my case, that means that the spell checker even works when i'm typing posts into the "reply to thread" field here at ljp.

so if i type in "twirp" or "sence" a little wavy red line appears under the word. then i can right-click on that red-underlined word and it will offer me a list of correct spellings.

it is not only advantageous, but it makes me appear more intelligent than i actually am.

rather than referring to those that you disdain as a "moron", you could always use the chemical element with atomic number 5 and the chemical symbol b which is "boron" (ie. a "boring moron").

which is the way i pronounce "moron" when i have a head-cold.
sorree myke, eye didn't meen two ofend u. tha way u xplane it makes purrfict cents !!!!

                  bess regaurds
cents = sence
you did not offend me, i was merely pointing out i do not care for your fucking spelling corrections.
you did not offend me, i was merely pointing out i do not care for your fucking spelling corrections.  

mike,

the fact that you had to use the term "fucking" indicates that i offended you.

                            paul
no it indicates that it pisses me off that it a music forum that after i take the time to write about this music that for some reason i have put so much time and work into in my life alls someone like you can comment about is a spelling error.  there is a difference between being offended and being pissed off.  there is a difference between thinkiing someone has offended you by reading your work and critiqueing your grammer and thinking someone is a moron for reading your work and that that is what they have to say about it when they are done.
in a sense you are my audience in this rare case i am not being paid by you.  nor do i have any fear of losing my job or for that matter any resulting jobs.  so you my audience that reads me and then chooses to just correct a spelling.. i will tell you exactly what i think of you, because i can. so many times in performance i have not been able to afford to tell my audiences what i have thought of them,  nor have i been able to tell students what i thought of them on occasion.  ah but you sir there is absolutely no reason not to.

so i will.

you sir are an,

ass.
hello mike, i appreciate you responding to my post and i think that i look at dvds because they have audio also, however i was looking for dialogue with an educator such as yourself to discuss and gain insight about this topic. as i looked and listen to this video i was curious about some one else's take into the subject. per haps to summarily reject a video as a gimmick might not always be the best course of action. i was puzzled by your first response and appreciated your second response as you attempted to offer true advise and guidence which is sound advise. i have been curios as to why you seem to be impatient in your answers but after reading the post from mister annal retentive spell checker i realize that this forum that you provide for attentive knowledge seekers could get to be a downer. i assure you that if i pose an inquiry about a subject i am seeking insight not a crotical analysis of your expertise and spelling. the video i asked about that came with melodic structures does provide examples of jerry four note groupinps the subject matter that i was curious about is the background and practice segments and how or if you thought thay related to the information on the video. i thought that this might lead to a meaning discussion in the manner that a forum platform should provide, my hope was i could learn what you thought about the segments and add my thoughts. i know it takes alot of time to monitor a forum and you must prioritise your agenda perhaps in the future you my happen across the video i have referenced and give it some time and provide a response. i hope that i have spelled every word correctly (lol) peace look to hear your response.
hey rust:
   thank you so much for your well thought out and timely responce in a thread that has gotten of point and gone in a bad direction at least partially because of my ill advised behavior.  your post single handedly inspires me to slap myself and come about face and re evaluate here.  thank you so much for supporting my reaction to "mister annal retentive spell checker".  i love the label and i think you hit it right on.... but the fact is i over reacted and the language i used has no place in this forum and it is an indication of my own immaturity.  sometimes as we get older we begin to regress    ... that has surely begun to happen to me in many ways.  i am on the way out the door right now and only time to thank you for your post which i truly appreciate.  later i will re evaluate to see if there is anything else intelligent i can say about the whole jerry bergonzi thing.

peace
ok rust when i got home tonight i got out my "melodic structures" vol i book and put the cd in my computer.  my first comment is this.  my cd has no videos.  i double checked ths content listings in the book ... there is no mention of any videos... it says the cd has tracks 1 - 19 as play along tracks.  it says tracks 20 - 29 are demonstration tracks of assignments.  tracks 30 -31 are examples 9 and 10 of chapter 13.
    so i am afraid i am back to this with you.. what video?  no video came with my book.. just a cd with audio play alongs and examples.  to what video are you refering?
mike
is it possible that earlier versions came with a cd and then a dvd was added in a later addition?  often music publishers will add content when new versions are pubished to keep up with the times and boost sales.

remember how aebersolds used to be records or tapes!?
i suppose it is possible.  these books are not available to purchase by normal big book stores.  they can be a little tricky to purchase.  published by advance music.  i did buy my copy brand new.  it says the copy right is 1992 with the copyright on the inclosed cd 1994..
anyways sorry i can not help rust.. i have no video where jerry plays video and piano nor do i know where you got it or how to get it.  it did not come with my book.
sorry... s/b  plays piano and sax.
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